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TUCoPS :: Cyber Law :: 0628-g~1.txt

MPAA vs. 2600 - Deposition of Emmanuel Goldstein Day 2, June 28, 2000




  1                     

  2             UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

  3             SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK

  4  
     UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC.;       )
  5  PARAMOUNT PICTURES CORPORATION;     )
     METRO-GOLDWYN-MAYER, INC.; TRISTAR  )
  6  PICTURES, INC.; COLUMBIA PICTURES   )
     INDUSTRIES, INC.; TIME WARNER       )
  7  ENTERTAINMENT CO., L.P.; DISNEY     )
     EMTERPRISES, INC.; AND TWENTIETH    )
  8  CENTURY FOX FILM CORPORATON,        )
                                         )
  9                                      )
                      PlaintiffS,        )00 Civ. 277
 10                                      )(LAK)(RLE)
                   vs.                   )
 11                                      )
     SHAWN C. REIMERDES; ERIC CORLEY     ) 
 12  A/K/A "EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN";         ) 
     ROMAN KAZAN; AND 2600               )
 13  ENTERPRISES, INC.                   )
                                         )
 14                   Defendant.         )
     ------------------------------------)
 15  

 16  

 17         CONTINUED VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF 

 18                 EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN

 19                 New York, New York

 20              Wednesday, June 28, 2000

 21  

 22  

 23  

 24  Reported by:
     Thomas R. Nichols, RPR
 25  JOB NO. 110289


                                                             166
  1                    

  2  

  3  

  4  

  5  

  6  

  7                        June 28, 2000

  8                        10:20 a.m.

  9  

 10             Continued videotaped deposition of  

 11       EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, held at the offices 

 12       of Proskauer Rose LLP, 1585 Broadway, 

 13       New York, New York, pursuant to Notice,

 14       before Thomas R. Nichols, a Registered 

 15       Professional Reporter and a Notary Public 

 16       of the State of New York. 

 17  

 18  

 19  

 20  

 21  

 22  

 23  

 24  

 25  


                                                             167
  1                     

  2  A P P E A R A N C E S:

  3  

  4       PROSKAUER ROSE LLP

  5       Attorneys for Plaintiffs

  6             1585 Broadway

  7             New York, New York 10036-8299

  8       BY:   LEON GOLD, ESQ.

  9             DAVID KRULWICH, ESQ.

 10                 -and-

 11       MOTION PICTURE ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA

 12             15503 Ventura Boulevard

 13             Encino, California 91436

 14       BY:   MARK D. LITVACK, ESQ.

 15  

 16       FRANKFURT GARBUS KLEIN & SELZ, PC

 17       Attorneys for Defendants

 18             488 Madison Avenue

 19             New York, New York 10022

 20       BY:   MARTIN GARBUS, ESQ.

 21  

 22  ALSO PRESENT:

 23       RUBEN MARTINEZ, THE VIDEOGRAPHER

 24  

 25  


                                                             168
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 10:16 

  3       a.m. on June 28, 2000, and this is tape 

  4       number 3 of the continuation deposition of 

  5       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein. 

  6  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N ,  resumed as a 

  7       witness, having been previously sworn by the 

  8       Notary Public, was examined and testified  

  9       further as follows:

 10  EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.)

 11  MR. GOLD: 

 12       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, just to remind you, you 

 13  are not being sworn in again, but you are under 

 14  oath. 

 15             Has 2600 obtained any donations as a 

 16  result of this case?

 17       A.    Not donations.  It's hard to say, but I 

 18  am sure we have gotten people to subscribe, buy a 

 19  hat, buy a T-shirt, whatever it is that we sell, 

 20  but no donations per se. 

 21       Q.    Do you have a retainer agreement with 

 22  Mr. Garbus's firm?

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  Go 

 24       ahead.

 25       A.    Our legal team is paid for by the 


                                                             169
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  Electronic Frontier Foundation.  So all financial 

  3  information would go through them. 

  4       Q.    The Electronic Frontier Foundation is 

  5  paying whatever fees are being paid on the case?

  6       A.    That's right. 

  7       Q.    Do you know anything -- let me ask you 

  8  again.  Did you make any agreement that you know of 

  9  with Mr. Garbus or his firm with respect to what 

 10  you were retaining Mr. Garbus for or how you were 

 11  paying Mr. Garbus?  And I mean his firm.

 12       A.    The only agreement I made with 

 13  Mr. Garbus is that he is my attorney, he is 

 14  representing me, he is working for me. 

 15       Q.    Did you agree to pay fees?

 16       A.    The fees, as I said, are being covered 

 17  by Electronic Frontier Foundation.

 18       Q.    As far as you know, that was an 

 19  agreement between Mr. Garbus and the Electronic 

 20  Frontier Foundation?

 21       A.    Yes.

 22       Q.    Is either your agreement or their 

 23  agreement in writing?

 24       A.    I would imagine so. 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to this 


                                                             170
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       line of inquiry.  If the judge requires us 

  3       to answer, we'll certainly answer. 

  4             MR. GOLD:  Are you, sir, directing 

  5       your witness not to answer any questions 

  6       about the --

  7             MR. GARBUS:  No.  I think you ought 

  8       not to ask it, but I am not directing him 

  9       not to answer.

 10       Q.    Has the Electronic Frontier Foundation 

 11  sent out any E-mails requesting contributions?

 12       A.    I believe EFF always sends out E-mails 

 13  requesting contributions, but not just E-mails, but 

 14  they have a web site.  They have a paper 

 15  publication.  They have fund-raising events of 

 16  various sorts.

 17       Q.    Did they publish any material on their 

 18  web site or have any communications in which they 

 19  solicited contributions to the defense of this 

 20  case?

 21       A.    I couldn't say for sure.

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Then don't speculate.

 23       A.    Specifically --

 24             MR. GARBUS:  Don't speculate.

 25       A.    I don't know specifically. 


                                                             171
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    You don't know one way or the other.

  3       A.    No.  

  4  RQ         MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I do request any 

  5       written material relating to any agreements 

  6       with Electronic Frontier Foundation relating 

  7       to this case. 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I will take it under 

  9       advisement. 

 10       Q.    Do you have any documents relating to 

 11  the Electronic Frontier Foundation?  I don't mean 

 12  E-mail communications you see by computer, but any 

 13  documents at all relating to the Electronic 

 14  Frontier Foundation?

 15       A.    No.  

 16       Q.    Have you ever broken into a computer 

 17  that doesn't belong to you? 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 19       A.    In the past, in the 1980s, yes.

 20       Q.    How many times?

 21       A.    I don't know a specific number of times. 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 

 23       Q.    More than ten?

 24       A.    Probably. 

 25       Q.    Do you remember who owned any of the 


                                                             172
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  computers you broke into?

  3             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  4       A.    The computers were all owned by the 

  5  company I mentioned yesterday, Telenet. 

  6       Q.    A telephone company?

  7       A.    No, it's -- it was a communications 

  8  company.  I believe they later merged with GTE.

  9       Q.    And all of the computers as far as you 

 10  remember that you broke into were owned by them?

 11       A.    Yes. 

 12       Q.    You have never broken into anyone else's 

 13  computer --

 14       A.    No.

 15       Q.    -- in the nineties. 

 16       A.    Oh, no.  

 17       Q.    For what purpose did you break into 

 18  their computers?

 19             MR. GARBUS:  I presume, Mr. Gold, to 

 20       save time I have a continuing objection to 

 21       the entire line of questioning.

 22             MR. GOLD:  Yes, sir. 

 23       A.    Back then I was just curious.  It was 

 24  new technology. 

 25       Q.    Why break into their computers rather 


                                                             173
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  than Bell Telephone or the Pentagon computers or 

  3  government computers?  Why did you choose them?

  4       A.    This was before the Net was actually a 

  5  very popular thing.  This was kind of the early 

  6  days.  So people were still feeling around.  And as 

  7  I mentioned yesterday, they had a one-letter 

  8  password, so it wasn't exactly difficult. 

  9             I should stress that it caused no harm.  

 10  All we used it for was communicating amongst 

 11  friends.  I explained everything and helped their 

 12  security system become stronger as a result.

 13       Q.    But didn't you take material from their 

 14  computer that could be used by yourself or other 

 15  people to make free telephone calls?

 16       A.    No.  There was no such material, no.

 17       Q.    What did you find in there that you 

 18  took?

 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 20       question.

 21       A.    We didn't take anything.  It was a 

 22  computer.  We didn't have computers back then.  It 

 23  was something to explore, something -- something to 

 24  learn about.  We learned how it worked.  We 

 25  communicated amongst ourselves, and that's the 


                                                             174
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  extent of it.  

  3             MR. GOLD:  This is Exhibit 5.

  4             (Handing.)

  5       Q.    If, Mr. Goldstein, if you could turn to 

  6  page 4, paragraph 13. 

  7       A.    Yes. 

  8       Q.    The first line of that paragraph states, 

  9  quote, "While I don't practice or condone breaking 

 10  into computer systems," and the sentence goes on 

 11  from there. 

 12             Is that true?

 13       A.    Yes. 

 14       Q.    You mean it's true for the nineties, but 

 15  not for the eighties.

 16       A.    That's a present tense sentence.

 17       Q.    It's a present tense.  So in other 

 18  words, you did at one time in your life practice 

 19  and condone breaking into computers; is that true?

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 21       question.

 22       A.    I wouldn't go so far as to say I 

 23  condoned, encouraged other people to do anything.  

 24  I have made mistakes of my own in the past, and I 

 25  have learned from them and moved on.


                                                             175
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    When you used the word "condoned" in 

  3  your answer, what did it mean to you?

  4       A.    On this line here?  Encourage people --

  5       Q.    In your answer you used the word --

  6       A.    My meaning of the word "condone" was to 

  7  encourage people to do something. 

  8       Q.    And you never encouraged anybody to 

  9  break into that company's security system?

 10       A.    No.  I didn't encourage people to do 

 11  that and I haven't encouraged people to do anything 

 12  like that since. 

 13       Q.    And you just did it yourself back in the 

 14  eighties.

 15       A.    Yes.  And met other people who had found 

 16  the same hole that I had found.

 17       Q.    The next sentence, which is the last 

 18  line on page 4, begins on the last line on page 4, 

 19  says, "Through the magazine and the radio program, 

 20  I try to instill a sense of responsibility in those 

 21  who may consider doing such things, so that they 

 22  carefully think about their actions and don't cause 

 23  any damages."

 24             Are you referring to specific magazine 

 25  articles or editorials? 


                                                             176
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 

  3       sentence speaks for itself.  There is no 

  4       reference there to particular articles.  It 

  5       is a sentence in an affidavit.  I don't 

  6       think it requires interpretation.  I object 

  7       to the form.  I don't see any reference to 

  8       any other magazine article.

  9       A.    It's a general statement about the 

 10  magazine.  Not any specific article. 

 11       Q.    Did you ever write anything for the 

 12  magazine where you tried to instill a sense of 

 13  responsibility in people who may consider breaking 

 14  into computers so they think about their actions?

 15       A.    We try to get people to think about 

 16  their actions before they do something, such as 

 17  break into a computer, and hopefully not do 

 18  something like that.

 19       Q.    My question to you is, do you remember 

 20  writing any, and if you don't remember, just tell 

 21  me, do you remember writing any editorials or 

 22  stories where you told people in so many words, 

 23  don't break into computers? 

 24             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Goldstein, do you 

 25       want to look through some magazines that we 


                                                             177
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       have here?

  3       A.    I can say that that's something that I 

  4  have said.  I can't point to a specific article, 

  5  but I know that's a viewpoint that I've expressed.  

  6  People shouldn't break into computers for various 

  7  reasons.

  8       Q.    I am going to ask you to identify the 

  9  article or editorial that you wrote for the 2600 

 10  publication which says that and leave a space in 

 11  the answer for you to do so.

 12  TO BE FURNISHED: _________________________________

 13  __________________________________________________.

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me.  Did we make 

 15       clear to you that we brought some additional 

 16       copies? 

 17             MR. GOLD:  This morning? 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  Yes. 

 19             MR. GOLD:  But heavens, if I read them 

 20       it will take me for the rest --

 21             MR. GARBUS:  Let the record indicate I 

 22       think that we are giving you 21 additional 

 23       copies. 

 24             MR. GOLD:  I thank you.  I think that 

 25       also responds to my specific request 


                                                             178
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       yesterday for all copies of the magazine.

  3       Q.    And I gather that's the ones you 

  4  readily found.

  5       A.    Those are the ones in your initial 

  6  request.  There is another stack coming today 

  7  FedEx.  You should have that. 

  8       Q.    Thank you.  I appreciate that. 

  9             MR. GARBUS:  Off the record. 

 10             (Discussion off the record.) 

 11       Q.    The last sentence in paragraph 13, which 

 12  is contained on page 5, says, "I also try to 

 13  instill a sense of reality into the mainstream so 

 14  that the actions of such people are judged in a 

 15  more even-handed way and so that people aren't sent 

 16  to prison for relatively minor offenses."  

 17             What were the relatively minor offenses 

 18  you had in mind in that sentence?

 19       A.    Offenses that don't cause any kind of 

 20  damage, that don't cause any kind of financial 

 21  loss.

 22       Q.    Who, as you understood it when you wrote 

 23  this, who was going to make the judgment of whether 

 24  or not it caused damage or financial loss?

 25       A.    A court of law.  Inside a court of law.  


                                                             179
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  If no damage is found. 

  3       Q.    But a court of law doesn't get into it 

  4  until the computer is broken into and sometimes not 

  5  even then.  In other words --

  6             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 

  7       Q.    Again, I am trying to find out which are 

  8  the relatively minor offenses that you had in mind?

  9       A.    They're all kinds of relatively minor 

 10  offenses. 

 11       Q.    Yes.  And some major offenses.

 12       A.    Such as hacking a web page for instance 

 13  and changing a single file, but leaving the 

 14  original.  That's just one example. 

 15       Q.    Do you consider circumventing a 

 16  protective device that protects digital 

 17  intellectual property a minor offense? 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.

 19       A.    That is a very general question.  And I 

 20  am not a lawyer, so I can't really....

 21       Q.    Well, I didn't ask you to give a legal 

 22  answer.  I am asking you, sir, whether you consider 

 23  now the circumvention of a protective device that 

 24  protects digital electronic property to be a minor 

 25  offense. 


                                                             180
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  He has 

  3       already testified that he is not a lawyer 

  4       and he doesn't know what the statutes 

  5       provide for that kind of conduct.  

  6       Q.    I am just asking, sir, if you consider 

  7  it to be a minor offense.  Do you have an answer? 

  8       A.    Again, I think it's a very general 

  9  question.

 10       Q.    I know.  Do you have a general answer?

 11             MR. GARBUS:  Just say you can't 

 12       answer.

 13       A.    I can't answer

 14  MO         MR. GOLD:  I know it's kind of 

 15       old-fashioned, Mr. Garbus, but I really do 

 16       object to a lawyer telling his witness what 

 17       to say.  You can make an objection to the 

 18       question if you want to.  I suppose you can 

 19       direct him not to answer so we have to take 

 20       it to the court.  But I think the one thing 

 21       you can't do is say, quote, just say you 

 22       don't know. 

 23             MR. GARBUS:  He has already said that.

 24             MR. GOLD:  Yes, I don't think that's 

 25       right.  I am a little old-fashioned, and if 


                                                             181
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       it happens again I am going to take it to 

  3       the court.  And I don't want to do that.  So 

  4       I am pleading with you. 

  5             MR. GARBUS:  OK. 

  6       Q.    Have you ever watched a decrypted movie?

  7       A.    I have never watched a DVD if that's 

  8  what you're asking. 

  9       Q.    Have you ever watched a decrypted DVD?

 10       A.    No.  

 11       Q.    Do you believe there are a few bad 

 12  hackers? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 14       the question.

 15       A.    I believe any group has bad people, yes. 

 16       Q.    How would you define "bad hackers"?

 17       A.    I would define bad hackers as people who 

 18  don't subscribe to the overall philosophy of 

 19  causing no harm, not intruding on people's privacy, 

 20  not violating the laws.  General common sense 

 21  things.

 22       Q.    Those people are good hackers?

 23       A.    Those are bad hackers, people who 

 24  violate those particular values which are part of 

 25  the hacker world. 


                                                             182
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Am I correct that traffic to 2600 on the 

  3  Internet has substantially increased since the 

  4  beginning of this lawsuit?

  5       A.    It's -- as I said, we don't keep logs, 

  6  so it's difficult to say for sure.  I would imagine 

  7  it has.  But it's really -- we don't sell anything 

  8  on our web site.  We don't have advertisements 

  9  there, so there's no real advantage to us to have, 

 10  say, 50,000 people instead of 30,000 people a day.

 11       Q.    Well, tell us where the income, if any, 

 12  that 2600 has comes from?

 13       A.    Everything comes from the magazine or 

 14  the things that we sell, such as T-shirts and hats.

 15       Q.    When you say "everything comes from the 

 16  magazine," do you mean the hard copy magazine?

 17       A.    Yes, the hard copy magazine.  We make 

 18  nothing off the web site.

 19       Q.    What is the amount of your subscription 

 20  in dollar terms to you?

 21       A.    I don't readily have that information in 

 22  my head.  I know that our circulation is around 

 23  65,000 per issue. 

 24       Q.    And you sell one-year subscriptions?

 25       A.    One-year.  We sell one-year, two-year, 


                                                             183
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  three-year subscriptions. 

  3       Q.    For how much?

  4       A.    $18 for a year in the United States.  

  5       Q.    Is it your understanding that movies are 

  6  now capable of being transmitted over the Internet?

  7       A.    No.  

  8       Q.    You don't know that.

  9       A.    No, it's my understanding that that's 

 10  not possible.

 11       Q.    Not possible?

 12       A.    At the current -- the current standing 

 13  in time, no, that's not possible. 

 14       Q.    Where did you get that?  What do you 

 15  know that causes you to say that?

 16       A.    Band width issues.  It would take an 

 17  incredible amount of band width to transmit a movie 

 18  in any viable form.  Just an incredible amount of 

 19  time. 

 20       Q.    What other information do you possess 

 21  that leads you to the conclusion that you gave me 

 22  in your last answer, the answer that you gave to 

 23  the question I asked you?

 24       A.    Just knowledge of that technical ability 

 25  or lack thereof, and watching developments on the 


                                                             184
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  Net.  Transmitting of video material on the Net is, 

  3  if anything, in its infancy.  A long way off.

  4       Q.    Why does the current state of band 

  5  widths available make it impossible to transmit 

  6  movies on the Internet?

  7       A.    Well, a movie, using a DVD as an 

  8  example, would be something on the order of I 

  9  believe 12, 13 gigabytes of data, and I don't have 

 10  a calculator handy, I don't know if I could do the 

 11  math, but most people today in certainly 

 12  residential situations rarely exceed a 56K modem. 

 13             DSL is still pretty much in its infancy, 

 14  especially around here.  And to transmit something 

 15  of that size would take an incredible -- we're 

 16  talking days, if not weeks.  And economically it 

 17  doesn't make any sense either.  So technologically, 

 18  economically, it's fantasy.

 19       Q.    So it just doesn't happen.  Movies are 

 20  not transmitted over the Internet.

 21       A.    Not that I'm aware of. 

 22       Q.    Did you ever hear of IRC channels?

 23       A.    Yes.

 24       Q.    What are they are?

 25       A.    Internet relay chat.  That's a way 


                                                             185
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  people communicate back and forth.

  3       Q.    Are there movies transmitted over IRC 

  4  channels?

  5       A.    I can't imagine.  I know there are some 

  6  Internet relay chat channels where people transmit 

  7  still images, you know, pictures, various pictures 

  8  of themselves, whatever.  That's about the extent 

  9  of how far that's developed.  I can't imagine them 

 10  transmitting movies over something like that. 

 11             MR. GARBUS:  Are we talking about 

 12       movies that come off DVDs or camcorders or 

 13       any movies of any kind?  I'm just not clear.

 14             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if any movies 

 15       of any kind were.

 16       Q.    Your answer wouldn't be different, would 

 17  it?

 18       A.    If you're talking about a 3-second 

 19  movie, maybe it would be a little different.  I 

 20  assume you're talking about commercial films and I 

 21  have never heard of a case like that.

 22       Q.    Well, I am talking about movies that 

 23  certainly exceed an hour in duration.

 24       A.    My answer stands.

 25       Q.    Was your understanding of the current 


                                                             186
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  state of technology with respect to band widths and 

  3  your understanding that movies are not being 

  4  transmitted over the Internet one of the reasons 

  5  you posted DeCSS? 

  6             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to that.

  7       A.    No, it's not related to that.  We posted 

  8  DeCSS as journalists. 

  9       Q.    So is it true that you would have posted 

 10  DeCSS regardless of whether band widths were very 

 11  developed or movies were being transmitted over the 

 12  Internet?

 13       A.    It's not related to that issue.  In 

 14  fact, it's not even related to transmitting videos 

 15  or copying or anything like that.

 16       Q.    So your answer is yes.

 17       A.    Yes, it's an encryption issue. 

 18       Q.    What do you know of the current state of 

 19  technological improvement with respect to band 

 20  widths, making them available to the general public 

 21  at lower and lower prices?

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 23       the question.  I ask the witness not to 

 24       speculate about things he doesn't know 

 25       about.


                                                             187
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    I know a bare minimal amount. 

  3       Q.    Let's hear it, if we may.

  4       A.    Things are advancing slowly.  We're 

  5  slowly moving into DSL.  Which basically gives 

  6  subscribers more than 56K access, speeds 

  7  approaching cable modems.  Still not nearly enough 

  8  to transmit anything as complex as a video with 

  9  sound.

 10       Q.    Who told you that?

 11       A.    Nobody told me this.  It's common 

 12  knowledge.  This is what I get from reading 

 13  magazines in this industry and basically 

 14  communicating with people. 

 15       Q.    Did you read all of the affidavits 

 16  submitted by your counsel in this case?  There were 

 17  about 18 or 20 of them.  Most of them from alleged 

 18  experts.

 19       A.    I can't say I've read every word of all 

 20  of them, but I definitely read some of them.  A 

 21  good part of them.

 22       Q.    Do any of them say that movies can be 

 23  transmitted over the Internet?

 24       A.    I wasn't aware of any of them saying in 

 25  the present movies can be transmitted over the 


                                                             188
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  Internet, no.  

  3       Q.    Do you know of any ongoing efforts right 

  4  now to make DSL available to whole communities at a 

  5  time?

  6       A.    No, I don't. 

  7       Q.    Are DSLs available in every college 

  8  campus in the United States?

  9       A.    No, I don't believe DSL is marketed to 

 10  campuses.  I think they use what is known as a T-1 

 11  or basically whatever the campus uses. 

 12       Q.    Those are broadband.

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 14       the question. 

 15       Q.    Are those broadband?

 16       A.    I don't believe so, no.  I don't believe 

 17  colleges are either. 

 18       Q.    Is cable modem available, are cable 

 19  modems available in Manhattan today on the Time 

 20  Warner cable?

 21       A.    I don't know about Time Warner.  I know 

 22  RCN offers them.

 23       Q.    What are they as you understand it?

 24       A.    I can't give you an exact speed, but 

 25  basically they allow you access to the Internet at 


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  2  higher speeds if there aren't people in your 

  3  immediate loop, meaning your neighbors who also 

  4  have cable modems.  With every person that uses a 

  5  cable modem in your area, your speed is reduced by 

  6  half.

  7       Q.    If you have a cable modem that works, 

  8  can movies be transmitted on that cable modem?

  9       A.    It can -- it will still take a very long 

 10  time. 

 11       Q.    How long?

 12       A.    A movie can be transmitted on a 300-baud 

 13  modem, but it would take a year to do it.  It is 

 14  not practical.  It makes no sense.  It's completely 

 15  uneconomical if you're looking to save money or 

 16  something like that.  And cable modems are not very 

 17  fast either.

 18       Q.    Are you familiar at all with what the 

 19  expert affidavits submitted in your behalf in this 

 20  case say about the amount of time it would take to 

 21  transfer a movie?

 22       A.    I don't have the number in my head.

 23       Q.    Or to copy a movie?

 24       A.    I don't have that number in my head 

 25  either.


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  2       Q.    Do you know they said it was possible to 

  3  transmit and copy movies that have been decrypted?

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to your 

  5       statement.  If you want to show him the 

  6       affidavit, then I think that's the 

  7       appropriate --

  8       Q.    Do you recall any such statement?

  9       A.    I don't recall that, but I would like to 

 10  see it. 

 11       Q.    Do you know whether or not there are 

 12  hundreds of movies being transmitted between people 

 13  having access to IRC channels on a daily basis?

 14       A.    No, I never heard of a single one.

 15       Q.    Have you heard that there are thousands 

 16  of such things go on --

 17       A.    No.  

 18       Q.    -- on a daily basis?

 19             You never heard of any such thing.

 20       A.    No.  

 21       Q.    Does the expression "compression 

 22  technology" have any meaning to you?

 23       A.    Compression technology?  It has some 

 24  meaning to me.

 25       Q.    What is that?


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  2       A.    It's basically a method of compressing 

  3  data so that it becomes somewhat smaller and can be 

  4  transmitted faster. 

  5       Q.    Well, if you have a two-hour movie do 

  6  you have any idea how long -- how much it can be 

  7  reduced by using compression technology?

  8       A.    My understanding is it would not be 

  9  significant, if at all.

 10       Q.    What do you mean by significant?

 11       A.    Anything greater than, say, 5 percent, I 

 12  couldn't -- I am aware that it cannot be 

 13  compressed.

 14       Q.    Who told you that?

 15       A.    Again, this is general knowledge.  I am 

 16  not an engineer, so I can't point to a specific 

 17  source, but it's my general understanding that 

 18  that's not a viable means of transmitting large 

 19  files of that nature.

 20       Q.    Can you give us any clue as to where you 

 21  obtained this knowledge?

 22       A.    Again, just through general 

 23  conversations, reading publications.  I can't point 

 24  to a specific source, no, I'm sorry.

 25       Q.    Is it true that illegal copying has 


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  2  nothing to do with DeCSS?

  3       A.    Yes.  That's true. 

  4       Q.    What do you understand is illegal 

  5  copying?

  6       A.    Making a copy of something that you are 

  7  not authorized to make a copy of.

  8       Q.    What is your understanding of the word 

  9  "copy"?

 10       A.    To make a duplicate of. 

 11       Q.    Is it your belief that copying a file 

 12  isn't the same thing as taking it?

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object.

 14       A.    While not legal, it is different from 

 15  stealing, because when you steal something it is no 

 16  longer in the place you took it from.  So yes, I do 

 17  believe there is a difference.

 18       Q.    Are there other differences?

 19       A.    That's the only difference I can think 

 20  of.

 21       Q.    Tell me the difference between stealing 

 22  a book by taking it or stealing a book by running a 

 23  full copy of it off and taking the copy. 

 24             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

 25       I object to the witness being asked to 


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  2       speculate.  I think that the judge yesterday 

  3       had difficulty with my speculations. 

  4             MR. GOLD:  I am not asking -- I don't 

  5       want the witness to speculate either.

  6             MR. GARBUS:  The witness is not a 

  7       lawyer and you should indicate, should 

  8       really indicate, the legal consequences -- 

  9  MO         MR. GOLD:  I think you're telling him 

 10       how to testify.  I don't know how much I can 

 11       beg to stop it so we don't have these petty 

 12       things before the judge.

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.

 14       A.    I believe if you are copying something 

 15  and the original is still there, it's not as -- 

 16  it's not the same thing as taking the original so 

 17  that nobody else can access it.  I am not saying it 

 18  is right.  It is very definitely wrong., but it's 

 19  not the same thing.  It is apples and oranges. 

 20       Q.    I see.  Thank you. 

 21             Do you believe that when a hacker is 

 22  violating the law they should be charged with 

 23  violating a particular law?

 24       A.    They should be charged with violating 

 25  whatever law they violated, yes. 


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  2       Q.    Has that charge been made against you in 

  3  this case, the charge that you're violating a 

  4  particular law?

  5       A.    I am not a lawyer.  I can't really 

  6  interpret how these laws are written. 

  7       Q.    What have you been charged with here?

  8       A.    I have been charged with -- my 

  9  understanding, a violation of the Digital 

 10  Millennium Copyright Act, which I believe is still 

 11  being interpreted in courts.

 12       Q.    Which violation?

 13       A.    I would have to look at the actual 

 14  charges.

 15       Q.    You don't remember?

 16       A.    Not specifically.

 17       Q.    Did 2600 magazine ever publish any 

 18  articles on DVD security systems prior to the hack 

 19  appearing on the Internet?

 20       A.    Not that I recall, no.  

 21       Q.    When did you first learn about DeCSS?

 22       A.    I first learned when it was initially 

 23  posted and when there was some controversy 

 24  surrounding people being intimidated into taking 

 25  the material off their web sites.  That's when we 


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  2  started to take an interest in it.

  3       Q.    What do you mean when you say I learned 

  4  when it was posted?  You saw it on the Internet?

  5       A.    I saw mention of it.  I visited some of 

  6  the sites and saw what was being said about it.  I 

  7  realized what it was about.  And it became a news 

  8  story that we were interested in.

  9       Q.    Did any of the sites you visit talk 

 10  about copying or getting free movies?

 11       A.    No.  

 12       Q.    None.

 13       A.    I didn't see it on any of the sites I 

 14  went to, no.

 15       Q.    How many did you go to?

 16       A.    At that time probably about three, four.

 17       Q.    Why did you stop at that, do you 

 18  remember?

 19       A.    It's basically the same thing over and 

 20  over again as far as mirrors of the files, 

 21  explanations.  Once you understand what it's about, 

 22  there's no real need to go to other sites to get 

 23  the same explanation. 

 24       Q.    That was in approximately October 1999 

 25  or do you have a recollection of a different date?


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  2       A.    I know it was the fall.  It was either 

  3  October or November.  I don't remember specifically 

  4  which.

  5       Q.    How soon after you visited these three 

  6  or four sites that you just mentioned did you 

  7  decide to post?

  8       A.    As soon as we saw that people were being 

  9  harassed and intimidated, that became the story for 

 10  us, the fact that a technological development was 

 11  seen as a crime.  It had nothing to do with 

 12  stealing or copying.  It was basically talking 

 13  about encryption, and people were being scared into 

 14  not doing this, and that's when we realized this 

 15  was much bigger than just figuring out encryption.  

 16  This was about speech. 

 17       Q.    How were people being intimidated?  What 

 18  was your understanding at that time?

 19       A.    My understanding was letters were being 

 20  sent to Internet service providers that had given 

 21  people accounts and they were being pressured to 

 22  turn off those people's access.  In many cases they 

 23  did.  People were being threatened with all kinds 

 24  of legal action, and it really had a chilling 

 25  effect. 


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  2       Q.    So is it true that the harassment you're 

  3  talking about consisted of letters being sent to 

  4  people saying they were violating the law and 

  5  asking them to stop it?

  6       A.    It was -- I don't recall the exact 

  7  phrasing of the letters, but that's my 

  8  understanding, that it was letters being sent both 

  9  to them and to the people who provided them 

 10  Internet access and just an unprecedented amount of 

 11  pressure being put upon them just for talking about 

 12  something, just for showing people how something 

 13  works.

 14       Q.    Did you then believe that people had a 

 15  right to ask people to stop violating a law if they 

 16  believed that the law was being violated and it 

 17  affected them? 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

 19       What he has described already, he is working 

 20       as a journalist writing a story.  I object 

 21       to the question.

 22             MR. GOLD:  I didn't ask that question.  

 23       Well, he says he is a journalist many times.  

 24       He said he was writing a story.  But I asked 

 25       him if he believed at the time he found out 


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  2       people were getting letters asking them to 

  3       stop violating the law whether or not people 

  4       had a right to send such letters if they 

  5       believed they were being harmed and the law 

  6       was being broken. 

  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it. 

  8       Q.    Do you have an answer for that?

  9  MO         MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

 10       He is not a lawyer.  Go ahead.

 11       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer, but I saw 

 12  those letters as intimidation tactics more than 

 13  simply a request, if you're violating the law, 

 14  please don't do that.  Obviously people know not to 

 15  violate the law.  This was something that was 

 16  common on the Internet, talking about technology, 

 17  and all of a sudden people were being told not to 

 18  do that and being threatened in ways they had never 

 19  been threatened before.  And it wasn't only us.  It 

 20  was dozens, hundreds of other Internet sites that 

 21  were drawn into this because of that. 

 22             MR. GOLD:  Could you mark the 

 23       objection Mr. Garbus made so that we can -- 

 24       go back to the objection Mr. Garbus made and 

 25       do whatever you do so that one can find it 


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  2       later right away.  A list can be made of 

  3       everything. 

  4             Read my last question back to the 

  5       witness, please.

  6             (A portion of the record was read.)

  7       Q.    I ask you again, do you have an answer 

  8  for that?

  9       A.    Assuming that my last answer wasn't 

 10  satisfactory, I will say yes, people have a right 

 11  to send letters if they believe the law is being 

 12  violated, but that's not how this was portrayed, 

 13  how it came across at all. 

 14       Q.    How many of such letters have you read?

 15       A.    I believe it was the same letter sent to 

 16  many people.

 17       Q.    How many of such letters have you read, 

 18  sir?

 19       A.    I saw about maybe four or five of them. 

 20       Q.    Were they all identical?

 21       A.    I believe they were.  Again, this is 

 22  several months ago, last year, so I can't say for 

 23  sure.  But I believe they were.

 24       Q.    Have you ever heard of a Chris Moseng, 

 25  M-o-s-e-n-g?


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  2       A.    No.  

  3       Q.    Have you ever heard of anyone name 

  4  Olegario -- let me spell it, because I don't think 

  5  I'm pronouncing it right -- O-l-e-g-a-r-i-o.  

  6  That's his is first name.  His last name is Craig.  

  7  Have you ever heard of such a person?

  8       A.    No.  

  9       Q.    Have you ever heard of Frank Stevenson?

 10       A.    I have heard that name, yes. 

 11       Q.    From whom?

 12       A.    I just -- that's a name in the Linux 

 13  community.  I am not specifically sure who he is, 

 14  but I know I have seen the name someplace.

 15       Q.    Do you think it's possible, do you 

 16  understand it's possible to transfer on the 

 17  Internet a 64 -- transfer a full movie such as "The 

 18  Matrix," on the Internet in 64 minutes?

 19       A.    If such a thing were possible it would 

 20  be very bad quality.  I mean, not -- certainly not 

 21  anything that would be viable. 

 22       Q.    Do you know if it's possible?

 23       A.    I don't know if it's possible.  I don't 

 24  know specifics as far as that goes. 

 25       Q.    Do you think it's possible to transmit a 


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  2  50-gigabyte file in 48 minutes over the Internet? 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 

  4       Q.    I am just asking if you know. 

  5             MR. GARBUS:  You asked him if he 

  6       thought it was possible.

  7       A.    I don't believe with any bandwidth 

  8  that I have ever come in contact with, no.  

  9       Q.    Do you know how large a typical movie is 

 10  in digital form after it has been compressed using 

 11  DIVX, D-I-V-X?

 12       A.    No, I am not familiar with that.

 13       Q.    Is it true that once a DVD movie has 

 14  been copied and decrypted using DeCSS it can be 

 15  played back from the hard disk file using a whole 

 16  variety of commercial software?

 17       A.    No.  Well, it's kind of a trick question 

 18  because you don't need DeCSS to copy it in the 

 19  first place.  So if you just copied the DVD 

 20  encrypted without using DeCSS, you could play it 

 21  back already on any DVD player. 

 22       Q.    But the answer to my question was yes or 

 23  no?

 24             MR. GARBUS:  No, he gave you --

 25       Q.    Or you don't know?


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  2             MR. GARBUS:  He gave you a different 

  3       answer.  He didn't say yes.  He didn't say 

  4       he didn't know.

  5             MR. GOLD:  Read my question back. 

  6             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead, just repeat 

  7       your answer.

  8             MR. GOLD:  What are you directing him 

  9       to do?  Just repeat his answer?

 10             Could you mark that note on the last 

 11       statement of Mr. Garbus. 

 12       A.    I am just trying to be clear here.  I 

 13  don't think that point about DeCSS is relevant to 

 14  the question.  It's like asking if it's possible on 

 15  a sunny day to do it.  It's not relevant.  You can 

 16  do it without DeCSS. 

 17             MR. GOLD:  Thank you.  Could you go 

 18       back and read my last question to the 

 19       witness.  I will ask him to answer it. 

 20             (A portion of the record was read.)

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

 22       It's already been asked and answered.

 23       A.    I am trying to answer this in a way you 

 24  like. 

 25       Q.    I don't want you to do that.  I want you 


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  2  to answer it in a way you think it's true.

  3       A.    If you copy an encrypted DVD onto a hard 

  4  disk and you somehow have the space on the hard 

  5  disk for that, and you have CSS already to play it 

  6  back through, yes, you will be able to view it that 

  7  way. 

  8       Q.    Going back to the question about your 

  9  posting DeCSS, how soon after you first saw it did 

 10  you post it?

 11       A.    How soon after we first saw the initial 

 12  posting?  It would be whatever period of time went 

 13  by before people started being threatened plus a 

 14  couple of days.  Because we discussed the 

 15  importance of it.

 16       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted it 

 17  what efforts did you make to find out whether 

 18  movies could be transmitted over the Internet?  

 19  Just list them all.

 20       A.    I didn't make any effort to find that 

 21  out.  I didn't see that as anything relevant.

 22       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted DeCSS 

 23  did you make any efforts to find out if there were 

 24  web sites in the United States which allowed people 

 25  to exchange movie files?


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  2       A.    No, that's not my interest.

  3       Q.    You made no such efforts; is that right?

  4       A.    No such efforts, no.  

  5       Q.    Prior to the time you first posted DeCSS 

  6  did you make any effort whatsoever to contact 

  7  anyone that produced movies in the United States?

  8       A.    No.  

  9       Q.    Have you ever used Napster?

 10       A.    I have played with Napster once or 

 11  twice, yes.

 12       Q.    Was that before you posted DeCSS?

 13       A.    Oh, no, that was way after.  I don't 

 14  think Napster existed back then.  That was a fairly 

 15  new development.

 16       Q.    Napster is a new development that 

 17  existed after November '99?

 18       A.    I believe so.

 19       Q.    So that would be about what?  Six months 

 20  ago that it first existed it?

 21       A.    I don't know when Napster first existed. 

 22       Q.    Do you know how many users use Napster 

 23  on a daily basis?

 24       A.    No.  

 25       Q.    No idea?


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  2       A.    No, not really.

  3       Q.    Do you know how many records are taken 

  4  down from Napster or traded, do you know how many 

  5  records on a daily basis are traded between Napster 

  6  users?

  7       A.    Entire records or just individual songs? 

  8       Q.    Songs.

  9       A.    I can't say I know.

 10       Q.    Is it in the multimillions?

 11       A.    I have no idea. 

 12       Q.    At all?

 13       A.    I really have no idea on that.

 14       Q.    I am not sure I asked this.  I might 

 15  have, so I apologize.  Have you ever used DeCSS to 

 16  decrypt a DVD movie?

 17       A.    No.

 18       Q.    Is it true that DeCSS exists and is 

 19  designed for the sole function of decrypting CSS 

 20  encoded content?

 21       A.    DeCSS exists to decrypt CSS, yes.

 22       Q.    And that's its only purpose?

 23       A.    As far as --

 24       Q.    As far as you know.  

 25       A.    The purpose in the greater context of 


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  2  providing an open source player for a Linux 

  3  machine, yes. 

  4       Q.    What do you know about how DeCSS works?

  5       A.    I am not an expert on that kind of 

  6  thing. 

  7       Q.    So you don't know anything about it.

  8       A.    I really don't know the technicalities 

  9  at all, no.  

 10       Q.    Is it true to your knowledge that by 

 11  downloading and running the object code form or 

 12  executable form of DeCSS utility, a user can 

 13  copyright a decrypted movie?  Let me ask it again.

 14             Is it true to your knowledge that by 

 15  downloading and running the object form, by which I 

 16  mean the executable form, of the DeCSS utility, a 

 17  user can create a decrypted movie? 

 18       A.    I am not entirely sure.  That's a little 

 19  too technical for me.

 20       Q.    You're saying you don't know.

 21       A.    I don't know. 

 22       Q.    Is it true that after creating a 

 23  decrypted movie file DeCSS allows that file to be 

 24  copied to the user's computer hard disk? 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 


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  2       the question.  He said he didn't know 

  3       whether or not the first part of your 

  4       question, which was the last question, was 

  5       true or not. 

  6       Q.    Do you know the answer to that question?

  7       A.    Again, I have never used DeCSS, so I 

  8  don't know these kinds of things.

  9       Q.    Can you describe for me the role, if 

 10  any, of DeCSS in reverse engineering?

 11       A.    Basically CSS uses the particular type 

 12  of encryption.  DeCSS gets around that kind of 

 13  encryption, defeats it, basically allows you to see 

 14  how that encryption works or in this case doesn't 

 15  work to encrypt -- to encrypt the data.  And in so 

 16  doing, a lot can be learned.

 17       Q.    Is that everything you know about the 

 18  role of DeCSS in reverse engineering?

 19       A.    Yes.  It's a general thing, but that's 

 20  basically the extent of my knowledge, is very 

 21  general.

 22       Q.    Describe the role, if any, of DeCSS in 

 23  connection with efforts to create an open source 

 24  DVD player.

 25       A.    My understanding is that the many Linux 


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  2  users of the world had long wanted a DVD player for 

  3  their operating system.  For various reasons of 

  4  which I don't really know the details they were 

  5  unable to obtain a license for this. 

  6             By reverse engineering CSS, those 

  7  restrictions were able to be bypassed and people 

  8  who had legitimately obtained DVDs were able to 

  9  play them on their legitimately obtained computers, 

 10  which I had never seen to be a problem.  

 11       Q.    Who, if anyone, is working on creating 

 12  the open source DVD player you just referred to?

 13       A.    A lot of people are.  I mentioned the 

 14  Livid project yesterday.  I know that's one group 

 15  of people that are doing it.  I know lots of people 

 16  in the Linux community are working on such things.

 17       Q.    Do you know any names of people in the 

 18  Livid group who are --

 19       A.    I remembered one since yesterday, 

 20  Matthew Pablovich.  That's the only name I know.

 21       Q.      Did anyone in the Livid group ever try 

 22  to obtain a lease from DVD CCA?

 23       A.    No, I don't know that. 

 24       Q.    Did you make any effort to find that 

 25  out?


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  2       A.    I didn't ask them specifically if they 

  3  did that, no.  

  4       Q.    Do you know whether or not it would have 

  5  been possible for them to obtain a lease?

  6       A.    No, I don't even know if it's even 

  7  possible.  I assume you mean license, not lease.

  8       Q.    I meant licensed.  Thank you.

  9       A.    Sure.

 10       Q.    Describe the role that DeCSS is 

 11  currently playing, if any, in cryptographic 

 12  research?

 13       A.    As I said, DeCSS allows one to study 

 14  encryption that was used in CSS.  That's my very 

 15  general understanding of how it can be used to 

 16  study this. 

 17       Q.    What is the relationship, if any, 

 18  between DeCSS and legal consumer fair use?

 19             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

 20       The witness is not a lawyer. 

 21             MR. GOLD:  Do you have the October 30, 

 22       I'm sorry, the May 30th -- May 3rd 

 23       declaration in front of you still? 

 24       Q.    Turn to paragraph 14 at page 5. 

 25             Do you understand that in paragraph 14 


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  2  you refer to the role of DeCSS to aid legal 

  3  consumer fair use?

  4       A.    Uh-huh.

  5       Q.    Do you see that you said that?

  6       A.    Yes, I said that.

  7       Q.    What did you mean by legal consumer fair 

  8  use?

  9       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer, but I believe 

 10  I explained --

 11       Q.    Were you a lawyer when you wrote this?

 12       A.    No.

 13       Q.    Were you a lawyer when you signed it?  

 14       A.    I have never been a lawyer.  I believe I 

 15  explained this yesterday though. 

 16       Q.    I am turning to paragraph 14 and I am 

 17  asking you what you meant when you swore to the 

 18  fact that the DeCSS program can be used as an aid 

 19  of legal consumer fair use.

 20       A.    By allowing someone to view something 

 21  which ordinarily they would be prohibited from 

 22  viewing and transferring onto another medium, such 

 23  as a videotape, this enables consumers to make use 

 24  of fair use with regards to DVD. 

 25             For instance, if you were making a 


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  2  report for your class and you wanted to include a 

  3  ten-second segment or a one-minute segment of 

  4  something that was only on DVD, you would not be 

  5  able to do that.  On a videotape, yes, you would be 

  6  able to do that.  From a book, yes, you would be 

  7  able to do that.  DVDs are the first medium that 

  8  prohibit fair use.  In my view. 

  9       Q.    Do you know whether or not viewing an 

 10  entire movie constitutes fair use or has anything 

 11  to do with fair use? 

 12             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 13       the question.  He is not a lawyer.

 14       A.    It's not my understanding as a nonlawyer 

 15  that that is covered. 

 16       Q.    And as a nonlawyer when you talked about 

 17  legal consumer fair use, what specific forms of 

 18  fair use did you have in mind?

 19       A.    As I described, basically being able to 

 20  take a portion of something and use it in another 

 21  work.  As has been done for however long fair use 

 22  has been around. 

 23       Q.    Other than posting DeCSS did you do 

 24  anything else to support its existence? 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the use of 


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  2       the term "support its existence."

  3             MR. GOLD:  Why? 

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what it 

  5       means. 

  6             MR. GOLD:  You don't know what it 

  7       means? 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what it 

  9       means.  I don't know what it means.

 10             MR. GOLD:  Did you read his affidavit 

 11       or did you write his affidavit? 

 12             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know what the 

 13       terms in those terms mean.  If you want to 

 14       refer to something in the affidavit, I will 

 15       be glad to look at it.

 16             MR. GOLD:  I would have thought you 

 17       looked at it before. 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  Perhaps not.  I didn't 

 19       prepare it.

 20             MR. GOLD:  I don't know that. 

 21       Q.    Turning to paragraph 14 at page 5 of 

 22  your -- I think declaration, the second line begins 

 23  the sentence as follows.  "However, when it was 

 24  posted to the Internet, I recognized the importance 

 25  of such a program to a variety of disciplines, 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  including reverse engineering an open-source DVD 

  3  player, cryptography and in aid of legal consumer 

  4  fair use."  What did you mean by -- strike that. 

  5             The next sentence says, "I was quick to 

  6  show support for its existence."  What did you mean 

  7  by support when you swore to this?

  8       A.    I consider support to be writing about 

  9  it, writing articles about it, educating people and 

 10  of course our eventual mirroring of the source code 

 11  in the program. 

 12       Q.    Did you understand when you were doing 

 13  that you were helping to proliferate the DeCSS 

 14  code? 

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 16       the question.

 17       A.    As I said, I saw that as support for the 

 18  existence of DeCSS, which I believe was covered for 

 19  the reasons stated.

 20       Q.    Was it your intent in doing the things 

 21  you testified to to have as many people in the 

 22  United States have DeCSS as was possible? 

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 24       the question.  He already stated he was a 

 25       journalist writing a story. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    You can answer, sir.  

  3       A.    Initially our only intent was to draw 

  4  attention to the fact that these people were being 

  5  intimidated, that this technological development 

  6  had occurred, and that was the extent of it.  We 

  7  were not going around on a crusade trying to get 

  8  DeCSS into everyone's home.  We were basically 

  9  writing an interesting story and showing people 

 10  something that was an interesting technological 

 11  development.  Unfortunately, that turned us into 

 12  the threat=. 

 13       Q.    After initially what was your purpose in 

 14  posting DeCSS?

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  He 

 16       hasn't testified it changed.

 17  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark that so 

 18       that we can get that added to the list of 

 19       Mr. Garbus's objections that we are focusing 

 20       on. 

 21       A.    Obviously once we became the target of 

 22  these legal threats, our position changed in that 

 23  we had to defend ourselves.  We had to explain our 

 24  position, how all of a sudden we were perceived as 

 25  a threat and we had nothing to do with the 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  development of the program in the first place. 

  3             So obviously our position in the whole 

  4  mix kind of was shifted.  Instead of reporting on 

  5  something, we became the story, which is never 

  6  something that we were pursuing ourselves.  I am 

  7  still kind of, you know, questioning why that 

  8  happened. 

  9             MR. GARBUS:  Can we take our morning 

 10       break? 

 11             MR. GOLD:  Sure.  About ten minutes. 

 12             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 

 13       11:18 a.m.  We're going off the record. 

 14             (A recess was taken.)

 15             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 

 16       11:29 a.m.  We're back on the record. 

 17  By MR. GOLD: 

 18       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, what, if anything, would 

 19  have been different in the stories or editorials 

 20  you published on your web site if you removed from 

 21  them the letters "DeCSS"?

 22       A.    I am not sure I follow the question. 

 23       Q.    Well, what would have been different 

 24  about what you were saying, what would have been 

 25  interpreted in a different way, if you eliminated 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  the letters "DeCSS"?

  3       A.    Do you mean the letters, the program, 

  4  the source code, any reference to DeCSS? 

  5       Q.    No, not any reference.  If you just took 

  6  those five letters out of your stories, what would 

  7  have been different?

  8       A.    I don't understand the question. 

  9       Q.    If instead of saying "DeCSS" you 

 10  referred to a program which decrypted CSS and never 

 11  used those five letters --

 12       A.    You mean not refer specifically to -- 

 13       Q.    -- quote, DeCSS.

 14       A.    Uh-huh. 

 15       Q.    Close quote.

 16       A.    We would have had a very general story 

 17  about something without any specific information, 

 18  which is what our readers look for, specific 

 19  information, you know, what is it that we're 

 20  talking about?  Show us what you mean.  And we were 

 21  compelled to provide our readers with that. 

 22       Q.    Are you saying what would have been 

 23  different -- if I understand, tell me if I am 

 24  wrong, you're saying what would have been different 

 25  is that nobody could have picked the DeCSS code up 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  from your web site. 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  That's not 

  4       what he said.

  5       Q.    Is that what you're saying or not? 

  6       A.    If you're saying that if we had taken 

  7  the program off of our web site, obviously no, 

  8  people wouldn't have been able to get the program 

  9  from our web site.  The story that we wrote had to 

 10  do with the fact that the program was already out 

 11  there and that people were being harassed because 

 12  they had it up on their site.  And that's what the 

 13  story was about. 

 14       Q.    Why couldn't you have said all that and 

 15  just not used the five letters "DeCSS" together?

 16       A.    Because that was the major part of the 

 17  story, that was what the program was called.  So to 

 18  eliminate a major part of the story like that would 

 19  either be censorship or intimidation, and we don't 

 20  believe in either one.

 21       Q.    I didn't say that I was going to do it 

 22  or the government was going to do it.  I asked you 

 23  what would have changed about your story --

 24       A.    Well, it's self-censorship.

 25       Q.    -- if you decided to eliminate.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Right, it is self-censorship.  You do it 

  3  for a reason.  You do it because you believe you'll 

  4  be targeted if you don't and then you do something 

  5  that isn't right for the wrong reasons.  As 

  6  journalists this is very important to us.

  7       Q.    Is it true or is it not true that the 

  8  main reason you put "DeCSS" in the stories and 

  9  editorials you wrote on your web site was that so 

 10  people could go to the web site and download DeCSS, 

 11  the entire program?

 12             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 13       A.    No, that's not the reason.  If people 

 14  wanted to download DeCSS, there were hundreds of 

 15  sites they could do it from.  They could go to any 

 16  search engine and find it that way.

 17       Q.    Why did you have to make it possible for 

 18  them to go to yours and pick it up?

 19       A.    Because we're a newsletter and this was 

 20  a bit of news that affected people who read our 

 21  magazine.  It was of interest to people who read 

 22  our magazine.  And we felt compelled to cover it, 

 23  and covering it includes giving as many details as 

 24  we can.

 25       Q.    But my question is, isn't it true if you 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  took out "DeCSS" the only thing that would have 

  3  changed is people's ability to download DeCSS from 

  4  your web site? 

  5             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  That's not 

  6       what he said.

  7             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if that was 

  8       true.

  9       A.    No.  It's part of the story.  DeCSS is 

 10  part of the story.  We provide our readers with 

 11  firsthand information, and that was information 

 12  that we provided them. 

 13       Q.    When you wrote the story about DeCSS in 

 14  your hard copy magazine, nobody could go to that 

 15  magazine and pull down the code, could they?

 16       A.    Well, you can't really put a program in 

 17  a magazine like that, no.  

 18       Q.    Do you remember writing on your web site 

 19  that DeCSS is a free DVD decoder that allows people 

 20  to copy DVDs? 

 21       A.    No, as I said yesterday, that was not my 

 22  writing. 

 23       Q.    Someone else wrote it? 

 24       A.    Yes.

 25       Q.    And you identified who?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Our webmaster.

  3       Q.    And you didn't see it before it was put 

  4  there?

  5       A.    No, I saw it before, and I take 

  6  responsibility for it being there.

  7       Q.    Is it true?

  8       A.    No, that's inaccurate, because as I have 

  9  testified, that does not enable people to copy 

 10  DVDs.  You can already copy DVDs.

 11       Q.    Why would you allow an inaccurate 

 12  statement to be published on your site?

 13       A.    Because in emerging technology, even we 

 14  don't always get the facts right, and this is one 

 15  particular case where we didn't understand the full 

 16  implications of the program at the time.

 17       Q.    Do you mean at the time that you 

 18  published this on your web site, I take it you're 

 19  telling me you did believe that DeCSS was a free 

 20  DVD decoder --

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object. 

 22       Q.    -- that allows people to copy DVDs; is 

 23  that true? 

 24             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

 25       That's not what he testified.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GOLD:  Didn't say it was.  I asked 

  3       him a question.

  4       A.    At the time my understanding was that 

  5  the program allowed people to view things in that 

  6  particular way and that with the proper type of 

  7  hardware and software you would be able to copy 

  8  certain files.  But I didn't have a full 

  9  understanding of what the implications were. 

 10             At that particular point in time, the 

 11  main story as far as we were concerned was the fact 

 12  that this was technology that people were being 

 13  intimidated into taking off their web sites.  We 

 14  didn't have a chance to fully explore what was 

 15  being done with the technology.  Once we did, then 

 16  it became clear. 

 17       Q.    What is simply unclear to me from your 

 18  statement, and I apologize for asking again, but I 

 19  can't understand what you're saying, so I will try 

 20  again.

 21       A.    OK.

 22       Q.    At the time this was published, that 

 23  DeCSS is a free DVD decoder that allows people to 

 24  copy DVDs, at the time that was published on your 

 25  web site, you believed that that was a true 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  statement, didn't you? 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 

  4       witness has already testified that 

  5       someone --

  6             MR. GOLD:  I'm going to ask you not to 

  7       coach anymore. 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I'm not.  I am just 

  9       stating the witness has already testified --

 10             MR. GOLD:  OK, that's enough for your 

 11       objection.

 12       A.    I mean, I answered this question, but 

 13  that my understanding of how the technology worked, 

 14  that that's what it was about.  I did not see that 

 15  as the issue at that point in time.

 16       Q.    At the time you understood the 

 17  technology to be that, i.e. a free DVD decoder that 

 18  allows people to copy DVDs, did you remove DeCSS 

 19  from your web site?

 20       A.    I don't think we had even started 

 21  posting it at that point.  That was before.

 22       Q.    Are you sure?

 23       A.    I can't say for certain.  I don't 

 24  remember specific dates involved.  But at that 

 25  point we were reporting on people being intimidated 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  and taking it off their sites.  And we didn't quite 

  3  understand what the program did ourselves.  We just 

  4  knew that telling people to take down source code 

  5  on a web site was unprecedented.

  6       Q.    Did you ever publish on your web site 

  7  the idea that you wanted as many people as possible 

  8  all throughout the world to mirror the DeCSS files?

  9       A.    After we were targeted we did express 

 10  the -- for people who wanted to show support, we 

 11  expressed that as a valid way of showing support, 

 12  yes. 

 13       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror DeCSS in 

 14  order to further cryptographic research? 

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question, 

 16       exhort.  I don't know what you mean by that.

 17       A.    We told people who wanted to support us 

 18  that that was a valid form of expression.

 19       Q.    Did you do it, did you ask people to do 

 20  that to further cryptographic research?

 21       A.    We told people if they wanted to support 

 22  us that this was a valid way of doing it.  Whatever 

 23  their reasons, whether it was for freedom of 

 24  speech, whether it was for reverse engineering, 

 25  cryptographic research, that was up to them.  We 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  didn't crawl into their heads and figure out their 

  3  motives.  We said if you wanted to support us, we 

  4  considered this a valid way of doing it.

  5       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror the 

  6  DeCSS file for purposes of reverse engineering? 

  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  8       the question.

  9       A.    My previous answer I think answers 

 10  that word for word. 

 11       Q.    Did you exhort others to mirror DeCSS 

 12  files in order to further fair use? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 14       the question.

 15       A.    Again --

 16             MR. GARBUS:  He's already asked and 

 17       answered.

 18       A.    -- I've already answered that. 

 19       Q.    That's all right.  You can answer it 

 20  again.

 21       A.    As I just said, we told people if they 

 22  wanted to support us, that whatever their 

 23  reasoning, whatever they felt, you know, the 

 24  purpose for mirroring the sites, the files, we 

 25  consider that a valid form of expression.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    So you didn't have the slightest idea of 

  3  what all these people would do if they downloaded 

  4  DeCSS or if they got DeCSS from your web site. 

  5       A.    Are you talking about the people who 

  6  mirrored or the people who downloaded from the 

  7  mirrors?

  8       Q.    People who mirrored.

  9       A.    Well, we knew what the people who 

 10  mirrored were doing, they were mirroring.  They 

 11  were simply putting the files up and explaining on 

 12  their web sites what the issues were about and 

 13  basically educating people about it. 

 14       Q.    Did you have any idea what all of those 

 15  people would do with DeCSS that they now possessed? 

 16  MO         MR. GARBUS:  I will object to what they 

 17       now possessed.  He already testified that it 

 18       had been up a long while before and that 

 19       other people had possessed it. 

 20             MR. GOLD:  Would you mark that again, 

 21       please, that particular objection.  

 22       A.    First of all, there is no indication 

 23  that they received the program from us, because the 

 24  program was all over the place.  Mostly they were 

 25  posting opinions and facts about the case and 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  educating more and more people about it.  Posting 

  3  the actual code was more of a symbolic type of a 

  4  thing.  But actually talking about the issues was 

  5  what we were encouraging.  That's what I think a 

  6  lot of people did. 

  7             As I mentioned yesterday --

  8       Q.    How do you know who did that?

  9       A.    I'm sorry?

 10       Q.    How do you know who did that?

 11             MR. GARBUS:  Will you let him finish 

 12       his answer.

 13       A.    Should I finish my answer before? 

 14       Q.    You hadn't?

 15       A.    I had one sentence.  As I mentioned 

 16  yesterday, most people that I -- in fact, I don't 

 17  know anybody who has actually used the program.  So 

 18  I can't testify as to what people did with the 

 19  program.  I am not aware of anyone ever using the 

 20  program. 

 21             This became a story that was of great 

 22  interest to people in the community.  And that's 

 23  what we were trying to, um to  have people become 

 24  educated on this, basically talking about the 

 25  issues and why they were important to them and we 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  encouraged people to think about them. 

  3       Q.    When you did post DeCSS and at present 

  4  when you're linking to other sites that post DeCSS, 

  5  is it true that any member of the general public 

  6  with Internet access can take it and download 

  7  DeCSS?

  8       A.    Yes, it is. 

  9       Q.    Who removed the posting of DeCSS after 

 10  the January 20 injunction?

 11       A.    Who physically moved the files?  I 

 12  believe it was both myself and my webmaster.  I 

 13  think my webmaster is the one who actually hit the 

 14  keys, if that's what you're after. 

 15       Q.    You're currently linking to other sites 

 16  that post DeCSS?

 17       A.    We have a list of links to other sites 

 18  that still have the files up, yes.

 19       Q.    In order to transmit DeCSS to as many 

 20  people throughout the world as possible, does it 

 21  make any difference whether you post DeCSS or link 

 22  it to others who post DeCSS? 

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 24       the question.  How does he know that?

 25             MR. GOLD:  We'll find out.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    It's not something that I really know 

  3  the efficiency of how, how to best get a file out.  

  4  I would imagine we're not doing it in the most 

  5  efficient way possible, which I think is further 

  6  testament to the fact that we're not in the 

  7  business of distributing this file.  We're 

  8  basically trying to get information out about it 

  9  and to spread education.

 10       Q.    If somebody takes or downloads DeCSS 

 11  from someone who is posting it, how do they do 

 12  that?  Describe it to me.

 13       A.    There are a number of different ways.  

 14  On the web they could click on a link, on that 

 15  other person's site, which would start a download 

 16  to their hard drive. 

 17             You could also use a method known as 

 18  FTP, where you basically open a connection and then 

 19  specify the file you want to download.  It 

 20  basically involves downloading however many files 

 21  are there.

 22       Q.    One of the ways that anyone can download 

 23  DeCSS from someone who is posting it is just to put 

 24  his mouse on the DeCSS and click once?

 25       A.    Usually you have to click twice to 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  indicate where in the hard disk you want to put it, 

  3  but that's close to what you have to do, yes.

  4       Q.    He clicks twice.

  5       A.    You have to go to the site.  You have to 

  6  select the file.  You have to tell your computer 

  7  where to put the file.  I think you might have to 

  8  verify after that as well.

  9       Q.    If a person wants to download DeCSS and 

 10  he goes first to someone who's linking to a site 

 11  that posts DeCSS, what does he have to do?

 12       A.    Do you mean a site such as ours? 

 13       Q.    Yes. 

 14       A.    There's an additional step in that he 

 15  would have to go to the page that has a list of 

 16  other sites that have that information.  He would 

 17  have to physically himself go to that site and 

 18  then --

 19       Q.    By clicking on?

 20       A.    By clicking on the link, then his 

 21  computer executes a command to go to a different 

 22  site.  And at that point it's out of our site and 

 23  he does whatever that site -- he follows whatever 

 24  instructions are on that site or he looks at 

 25  whatever information is on that site.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    But if that site simply has DeCSS up on 

  3  its first page, or the link will go to the first 

  4  page and all that person would have to do is click 

  5  on the DeCSS, right?

  6       A.    However their site is laid out.  He 

  7  would have to click however many times they specify 

  8  on that particular site if the file was even there.  

  9  If it's on a different page, he might have to click 

 10  a few more files.  Basically what the list of links 

 11  is is a list of sites where he can find information 

 12  or the actual program.

 13       Q.    So it's pretty simple, is it, to 

 14  download DeCSS if one starts with your site which 

 15  links to other sites that post them? 

 16             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 17       question.

 18       A.    I consider it to be pretty simple no 

 19  matter what site you go to.  You can go to Yahoo or 

 20  Alta Vista and find it just as easily.  So to me 

 21  it's an easy thing.  I don't know.  I can't put 

 22  myself in the heads of other people.

 23       Q.    Is Yahoo now linking to sites that post 

 24  DeCSS?

 25       A.    Well, yes, if you type DeCSS into a 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  search engine, you will get links to all the sites 

  3  that have then, so yes.

  4       Q.    When you posted DeCSS was it in object 

  5  code form?

  6       A.    I can't really say.  That's a technical 

  7  thing.  Because I have never actually examined the 

  8  files myself.  I never had occasion to --

  9       Q.    So you have no idea?

 10       A.    I am not sure what format they are in, 

 11  no.

 12       Q.    With respect to the sites you're now 

 13  linking to, are those sites all carrying DeCSS in 

 14  object form?

 15       A.    I can't say what's on each of those 

 16  sites. 

 17       Q.    What about what's on any of them?

 18       A.    I know it's in source code form, object 

 19  code form, Different formats.  But there's no way I 

 20  can swear to what every single site has.  There are 

 21  different sites.  Some of them have changed.

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, if you leave a 

 23       space certainly he can find out what it is 

 24       on his site and he can tell you that. 

 25             THE WITNESS:  No, I can't.  It's not 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       on my site anymore.

  3             MR. GARBUS:  Well, when it was on your 

  4       site could you find it?

  5             THE WITNESS:  I don't know how.  It's 

  6       not there. 

  7             MR. GARBUS:  My attempt to be helpful 

  8       was a failure.

  9       Q.    What is object code?

 10       A.    I imagine it's --

 11       Q.    Do you know?

 12       A.    It's -- I am not really --

 13       Q.    If you don't know, tell me you don't 

 14  know. 

 15       A.    I feel like an idiot, but I don't really 

 16  know specifically how to define it. 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  Don't be an idiot and 

 18       don't speculate.

 19       A.    The source code. 

 20       Q.    Is it true that you don't know what 

 21  source code is?

 22       A.    I know what source code is.  It's 

 23  basically the printed -- the printed words involved 

 24  in a computer program that later get compiled into 

 25  an actual program. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             So basically the source code is the meat 

  3  of the whole thing.  That's where you can analyze 

  4  what the program does, how it does it, think of 

  5  better ways for it to work more efficiently, and 

  6  learn from it that way.

  7       Q.    How if you know does object code differ 

  8  from that?

  9       A.    I am not familiar with object code.  I 

 10  am not a computer programmer. 

 11       Q.    Would object code of DeCSS be helpful to 

 12  a cryptographer?

 13       A.    I imagine any form would be helpful to 

 14  someone who knew what they were talking about. 

 15       Q.    Is it true that any member of the 

 16  general public with Internet access could prior to 

 17  January 20 access 2600.com and directly download 

 18  DeCSS?

 19       A.    If it was after when we put it up and 

 20  before when we took it down, yes.

 21       Q.    Before the injunction.

 22       A.    Yes, anyone who could access our site 

 23  would be able to download it.

 24       Q.    How will knowledge gained from DeCSS 

 25  allow future programs to develop better DVD 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  players, if you know?

  3       A.    Well, as -- my opinion on the matter is 

  4  that it would for one thing enable you to develop 

  5  better encryption so that this kind of thing 

  6  doesn't happen again or so that it takes longer for 

  7  it to happen again. 

  8       Q.    How will the knowledge gained from DeCSS 

  9  allow future programmers to fast forward through 

 10  commercials or to the part of the movie they want 

 11  to see?

 12       A.    I'm sorry, give me the first part of the 

 13  question.

 14       Q.    Yes.

 15             MR. GOLD:  Could you read the question 

 16       back. 

 17             (A portion of the record was read.)

 18       A.    By understanding the access controls 

 19  that are contained within CSS, by understanding 

 20  that and figuring out ways to bypass them or change 

 21  them, one can get around those playback controls, 

 22  playback controls being the things that control how 

 23  you view the film.  Not whether you can view the 

 24  film, but how you view it.

 25             MR. GARBUS:  May I hear the answer, 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Mr. Gold? 

  3             MR. GOLD:  Of course. 

  4             (A portion of the record was read.)

  5       Q.    Do you know what a temporary RAM copy of 

  6  a movie is?

  7       A.    Not specifically, no.  

  8       Q.    Do you know how it differs, if at all, 

  9  from a copy that is made to a permanent computer 

 10  file?

 11       A.    I can only speculate. 

 12       Q.    I prefer you give us only your 

 13  knowledge.  

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Don't speculate. 

 15       Q.    Did you ever advise visitors to the 2600 

 16  web site that they shouldn't take DeCSS if they 

 17  just want to copy a DVD?

 18       A.    Yes, I believe that was around the same 

 19  time where we thought that there was some 

 20  relationship between DeCSS and copying.  So that 

 21  statement could very well have appeared on our 

 22  site.

 23       Q.    Did you change the statement when you 

 24  thought you learned something different from 

 25  copying movies?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    No, it's our view that a news story, if 

  3  it makes a mistake, the mistake lives with the 

  4  story and we just move on from there.  We don't try 

  5  and rewrite the past. 

  6       Q.    Are you serious?

  7       A.    We wrote it back then.  For us to go 

  8  back and rewrite it with the date from the past I 

  9  think would be dishonest.

 10       Q.    Why did you advise visitors to your site 

 11  not to download DeCSS if they just wanted to copy a 

 12  DVD?  Why did you give them that advice?

 13       A.    Well, with the knowledge we had at the 

 14  time --

 15       Q.    Yes.

 16       A.    -- we wanted to make sure that people 

 17  were following this for the right reasons.  

 18  Basically that this was a discussion about 

 19  technology, about how a particular form of 

 20  encryption worked, about reverse engineering.  And 

 21  that was the real issue.  It wasn't about, you 

 22  know, what you could get for free or, you know, how 

 23  much you could get away with.  That's not what 

 24  we're about.  We're about education.  We wanted to 

 25  make sure that that's why people took an interest 


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  2  in this. 

  3             Obviously we can't control what people 

  4  do.  But we wanted to make it clear where we were 

  5  coming from on this.

  6       Q.    Can you control what you do?

  7       A.    Oh, certainly. 

  8       Q.    Well, then why did you stop saying don't 

  9  take down, don't download DeCSS if all you want to 

 10  do is copy a DVD?  Why would you have changed that?

 11       A.    Well, we changed it when we realized it 

 12  had nothing to do with copying DVDs.  So it became 

 13  kind of pointless for us to continue saying that. 

 14       Q.    Did you believe it would have been 

 15  illegal to make a copy when you wrote, when you 

 16  were advising people not to take DeCSS if all they 

 17  wanted to do was copy the movie?

 18       A.    Again, I am not a lawyer.  I don't know 

 19  the specific laws, but certainly I would consider 

 20  it to be illegal and immoral at the very least to 

 21  copy anything that's not yours.

 22       Q.    Was one reason that you advised viewers 

 23  not to take DeCSS if they wanted to make a copy of 

 24  it, the movie, the fact that you believed it would 

 25  have been illegal, so you wanted to tell them that?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

  3       Q.    That either was a reason that you had or 


  4  it wasn't.

  5       A.    That was a concern. 

  6       Q.    It was a concern.

  7       A.    Definitely would have been a concern if 

  8  we thought it was illegal, yes. 

  9       Q.    Who told you that you couldn't copy a 

 10  movie if you downloaded DeCSS?

 11       A.    After the story became a little bit more 

 12  well established, numerous people --

 13       Q.    You can't name any of them?

 14       A.    I didn't write down people's names.

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I don't think he finished 

 16       his answer.

 17       A.    Basically these are the people that we 

 18  saw at conferences, at 2600 meetings, people who 

 19  had called up the radio show or sent us random bits 

 20  of E-mail.  It just became general knowledge that 

 21  that's what this program did and it didn't do this. 

 22             And once we understood more, how the 

 23  technology worked ourselves, we were able to get it 

 24  right.

 25       Q.    Did you ever consult any expert or 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  someone you recognized as an expert to find out if 

  3  you could copy a movie once you downloaded DeCSS?

  4       A.    I talked with people starting with I 

  5  believe the early part of this year.  I think at 

  6  the Linux Expo earlier this year I talked to a 

  7  number of people at a panel discussion. 

  8             In fact, I remember at the panel 

  9  discussion I even asked one of the lawyers there 

 10  who had helped write the Digital Millennium 

 11  Copyright Act if there were any cases of DeCSS 

 12  being used to copy files.  He wasn't able to name 

 13  any.

 14       Q.    I assume you can't remember the name of 

 15  either one of those people.

 16       A.    I am not good with names.  

 17  Unfortunately. 

 18       Q.    What about Internet names like Zerb or 

 19  Blip or Blup or Fluff or things like that?

 20       A.    No.

 21       Q.    You can't even remember one by its 

 22  Internet name.

 23       A.    See, this is just a general widely 

 24  accepted view that this cannot be done.  I don't 

 25  remember specifically who first told me.  It's just 


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  2  something that everybody knows.

  3       Q.    Is it the view of the experts in this 

  4  case who have submitted affidavits on your behalf?

  5       A.    Yes.

  6       Q.    How do you know that?

  7       A.    Well, I mean, I --

  8       Q.    Why do you say it is?

  9       A.    Even without looking at it -- 

 10       Q.    You didn't read the affidavit and you 

 11  didn't talk to them about it.

 12       A.    I didn't talk to them personally.

 13       Q.    And you didn't read the affidavit.

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I think he said that he 

 15       read some of it --

 16       A.    Yeah, I glanced at affidavits.  I am 

 17  not sure exactly what parts I missed.  But the 

 18  overwhelming prevailing view is that it's simply 

 19  not possible.  This is not a copying mechanism. 

 20             MR. GOLD:  Let's mark this as 

 21       Exhibit 6.

 22             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 6, series of 

 23       documents on web sites and web listings, 

 24       marked for identification, as of this date.)

 25       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, what is the first page of 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  Exhibit 6?  I only asked you about the first page.

  3       A.    I am not sure what you asked me.

  4       Q.    What is it?

  5       A.    This looks like another web site that 

  6  mirrored the file or had a list of sites 

  7  themselves. 

  8       Q.    Do you know if they were replying to 

  9  your exhortation to help with respect to DeCSS? 

 10             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 11       the question.  He didn't -- that was not his 

 12       testimony.

 13             MR. GOLD:  I asked him if he knew 

 14       whether this web site published this 

 15       document because of his request for help in 

 16       the fight against the movie companies. 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 18       the question.

 19       A.    We encourage people to express 

 20  themselves and this is an example of someone 

 21  expressing themselves in ways that we would 

 22  certainly not sanction, or not support, rather.  

 23  Because I think it's rather immature.  I think a 

 24  lot of the facts are wrong and it just goes to show 

 25  that you cannot control what people say on the Net.  


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  Lots of times things aren't entirely right.  So 

  3  this is not a fair representation of any position 

  4  that we hold. 

  5       Q.    Well, it did result from your exhorting 

  6  other web sites to help.

  7       A.    I don't think we exhorted.

  8             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

  9       question.

 10       A.    We basically explained to people how 

 11  they can express themselves as well if they so 

 12  chose.  And this is an example of somebody -- this 

 13  didn't help us in any way.  This is somebody 

 14  expressing themselves in an immature way.  We can't 

 15  control it.  It hurts us as well as it helps us.  

 16  We just explained to someone how they can do it.

 17       Q.    Didn't it help you that they were 

 18  posting DeCSS? 

 19       A.    No. 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  I'll object to it. 

 21       Q.    Can you tell they were posting DeCSS 

 22  from what is on page 1? 

 23             Why are you flipping?  I'd rather you 

 24  didn't.

 25       A.    I'm sorry.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    And stay with the first page so you can 

  3  concentrate a bit?

  4       A.    OK, on the top I see a link, but again, 

  5  this is text.  I have no idea if that's a real link 

  6  or just something that went somewhere else.

  7       Q.    Have you ever seen this site?

  8       A.    I am not familiar with this site, no.  

  9       Q.    Now, when it says after number 3, "The 

 10  Men Behind The Madness, 2600.com," what does that 

 11  mean?

 12       A.    I guess that's their view of us.  "The 

 13  men behind the madness" is not a view I share.  But 

 14  that's their perception and it's their right to say 

 15  it.  

 16       Q.    I think the second sentence reads, 

 17  quote, "Oh yeah and if you bitches (government)(DVD 

 18  ho's)(Feds) can't get the right facts, just don't 

 19  say anything you dumbasses, period." 

 20             What did "DVD ho's" mean, h-o apostrophe 

 21  s?

 22       A.    Without the help of anthropologists, I 

 23  don't think I can really interpret this. 

 24       Q.    The last line, "DON'T FUCKING COMPLAIN, 

 25  YOU FUCKING DESERVE IT, YOU RICH FUCKING SNOBS," 


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  2  that refers to who? 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  It 

  4       speaks for itself.  From reading it I can't 

  5       tell who it refers to.

  6       A.    I have no idea who this person is 

  7  talking to.  I mean, it's -- I don't see how I can 

  8  interpret something that I am completely unfamiliar 

  9  with as far as where it comes from or what they're 

 10  trying to say.  I get a vague sense that they -- 

 11  they are trying to support us, but just not doing a 

 12  very good job of it in my view, but I am not going 

 13  to interpret what they meant.

 14       Q.    Did you make any effort whatsoever to 

 15  isolate your transmission of DeCSS to sites that 

 16  were involved with education or fair use or 

 17  cryptography?

 18       A.    Do you mean control who got to our site 

 19  and download the file?

 20       Q.    Control who got 2600, who got DeCSS from 

 21  2600.

 22       A.    We don't have controls like that for 

 23  anything we do.  Anybody is free to read our web 

 24  site.  We don't ask who is reading our web site.  

 25  We don't keep track of the people doing it.  We 


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  2  don't ask their motives, so no.

  3       Q.    Is it true that when you posted DeCSS 

  4  you knew in fact that all sorts of people who had 

  5  nothing to do with education or fair use or 

  6  cryptography or reverse engineering would download 

  7  it from your site?

  8       A.    If they so chose.

  9       Q.    You knew that.

 10       A.    I didn't know they would do it, but I 

 11  knew it was possible, certainly.

 12       Q.    Didn't you believe it was far more 

 13  possible that people who had nothing to do with 

 14  cryptography or fair use would download it since 

 15  there was ever so much more of them than they are 

 16  of those who are involved in education and 

 17  cryptography? 

 18       A.    No,  I had no reason to jump to that 

 19  conclusion.

 20       Q.    Wasn't that common sense? 

 21             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  It's not 

 22       common sense. 

 23  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark that too, 

 24       please.  

 25       A.    I believe the people that would download 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  these files were people who were interested in the 

  3  technology.  And as I have already said, it's not a 

  4  method for copying DVDs, so you would have to know 

  5  something of what you're doing in order to even 

  6  make use of these files.  So while people may have 

  7  downloaded it, I don't think they understood it or 

  8  got anything out of it other than clicking on 

  9  something.

 10             MR. GOLD:  Martin, I tried to avoid 

 11       this, but since there will be many more of 

 12       your witnesses who will be testifying in the 

 13       next two weeks, I am going to have to bring 

 14       this up with the court, I believe.  I will 

 15       review it when I get it, but I think you're 

 16       doing something that's uniquely improper.  I 

 17       know you disagree and I really didn't want 

 18       to bother the court with it.  I pleaded with 

 19       you to stop, but I guess it has to be.  I'll 

 20       review it. 

 21       Q.    In any event, after reading page 1 of 

 22  Exhibit 6, would you say that this web site or the 

 23  persons connected with this web site were involved 

 24  in any educational purpose with respect to DeCSS or 

 25  cryptography or --


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    It's impossible for me to assess the 

  3  knowledge of the people behind this.  For all I 

  4  know, these are, you know, educated people writing 

  5  things just to be funny.  But my initial view is 

  6  that it's immature people that don't really know 

  7  the facts.  They just want to do some posturing.

  8       Q.    Well, then, do you believe these people 

  9  may well be cryptographers?

 10       A.    It's impossible for me to say.

 11       Q.    You don't know whether they are or not?

 12       A.    No, how could I say?  It's text on a 

 13  page. 

 14       Q.    Do you know any cryptographers?

 15       A.    I know some, yes.

 16       Q.    Any like this?

 17             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 18       A.    Any like this?  Not that I have ever 

 19  seen, no.

 20       Q.    But that doesn't give you any clue with 

 21  respect to these people.

 22       A.    I have no idea who these people are.  

 23  That's what I am trying to say.

 24       Q.    Turning to page 3 of that exhibit, the 

 25  third page, they are not numbered, it's the one 


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  2  that begins, and I quote, fuck the system, close 

  3  quote.  Do you have it?

  4       A.    I do. 

  5       Q.    What web site is this? 

  6       A.    I am not sure. 

  7       Q.    Can you tell by looking?

  8       A.    Actually, it's a different site than the 

  9  one we were just looking at.  Cyberarmy.com, 

 10  according to the URL at the bottom of the page.

 11       Q.    Did you ever see this page before?

 12       A.    I don't recognize it, no.

 13       Q.    Near the end of the text the following 

 14  sentence appears.  "Sites like this one are going 

 15  up by the minute."  Close quote.  Is that true?  

 16  Were they?

 17       A.    A lot of sites went up.  I don't know if 

 18  it was by the minute.  I don't know how many 

 19  exactly.  We eventually had to stop putting them up 

 20  ourselves because we just didn't have the manpower 

 21  to be constantly adding sites. 

 22       Q.    You don't know anyone connected with 

 23  this site?

 24       A.    No.  

 25       Q.    Did you say you didn't think you had 


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  2  seen it before?

  3       A.    I don't think so, no.

  4       Q.    Was it attached to your affidavit, do 

  5  you know?

  6       A.    No, I don't recall seeing that before. 

  7       Q.    Now, this particular document taken from 

  8  the web site that you mentioned contains about 18 

  9  pages.  What do you understand pages 2 through 18 

 10  to be?

 11       A.    It looks like a list of sites that also 

 12  have DeCSS on them. 

 13       Q.    Do you believe the site from which this 

 14  document comes was trying to promote cryptography?

 15       A.    I can't really testify to their motives.  

 16  Just by reading these few words here.  I see some 

 17  factual misconceptions.  I see some things that are 

 18  accurate.  It's impossible for me to say what the 

 19  motivation of the people behind this is. 

 20       Q.    Well, do the words forming the title of 

 21  this message, "fuck the system," give you any view 

 22  as to or any clue as to what the motive was?

 23       A.    I think it would be wrong for me to 

 24  judge without any further information as to what 

 25  these people are saying.  How do you define what 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  system is it they are talking about?  Maybe they 

  3  are talking about a computer operating system.  Who 

  4  knows?  I think it would be wrong for me to jump to 

  5  conclusions. 

  6             MR. GARBUS:  Can I ask you a question, 

  7       Mr. Gold?  The date on this is March 23rd.  

  8       At least that seems to be the date on the 

  9       bottom of this.  Do you know where these 

 10       documents came from? 

 11             MR. GOLD:  Yes. 

 12             MR. GARBUS:  OK.  Would you care to 

 13       tell us? 

 14             MR. GOLD:  No.  

 15       Q.    Turning to the document in Exhibit 6 

 16  that follows the 18-page document, --

 17       A.    "Technomancers of Dark Technology"? 

 18       Q.    That's it.  What site does that appear 

 19  to come from?

 20       A.    According to this, it says 

 21  "isupport2600.8m.com.  Actually, the site would be 

 22  just the latter part of that, 8m.com.  And they 

 23  named the machine.

 24       Q.    Are you familiar with the site?

 25       A.    No.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Or the people involved with the site?

  3       A.    No, I don't recognize any names, no.  

  4       Q.    Looking at the page, can you tell 

  5  whether this is a response to your message to other 

  6  web sites to help in the fight against the motion 

  7  picture companies?

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  9       the question.

 10       A.    It's a response.  I don't know if it's a 

 11  response because of us, because it says 2600 and 

 12  all of the computer users.  It could be a response 

 13  to any of the other sites that had links up. 

 14             I can't even say for sure that the links 

 15  were here, because all it says is "files can be 

 16  found here."  But there is no indication that the 

 17  files actually were there. 

 18       Q.    Is there a clue in the words, quote, 

 19  support 2600 in the DVD encryption dispute, close 

 20  quote?

 21       A.    Yes.

 22       Q.    What clue?

 23       A.    Well, support 2600 obviously means 

 24  they support us.  It doesn't mean it's a response 

 25  to something we said.  They could have gotten this 


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  2  from someone else as well.

  3       Q.    Is it true that your site only links to 

  4  sites which have furnished you with their URL?

  5       A.    Yes.

  6             MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the question 

  7       again? 

  8             (A portion of the record was read.)

  9       Q.    Is it true that those sites which have 

 10  posted DeCSS or mirrored your site containing DeCSS 

 11  that in fact supplied you with their URLs did so to 

 12  enable 2600 to link with them? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 14       question.

 15       A.    Not necessarily.  Lots of sites existed 

 16  already and in fact, our mirror, our list of 

 17  mirrors was not the biggest out there.  There were 

 18  other such lists.  And sometimes what we would do 

 19  is simply look at the other list and copy some of 

 20  those ones. 

 21             So actually, I have to correct myself.  

 22  It wasn't always submitted to us.  Sometimes we 

 23  went out and saw another site that had more links 

 24  and just added to our list. 

 25       Q.    When you saw the other sites that you 


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  2  added to your list of sites you were linking to, 

  3  did you read them and see what they said?

  4       A.    All we did was very quickly, and 

  5  actually, we had a few people do this because there 

  6  were just so many of them, just quickly go through 

  7  and see if in fact they were links to the files 

  8  there, because that's what we were representing 

  9  them as, as links to DeCSS.

 10       Q.    The text would have been irrelevant.

 11       A.    The text was not something we focused on 

 12  only because there was so much of it.

 13       Q.    I don't know what that means, I didn't 

 14  focus on it.  Did you not totally ignore it? 

 15             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 16       A.    We didn't tell people to go and ignore 

 17  it.  But basically what we told the people who were 

 18  helping us was, are the files there?  If so, we add 

 19  it.  Because we had to go through hundreds of sites 

 20  in a relatively short period of time.

 21       Q.    Is there any difference between that and 

 22  ignoring the text on the site? 

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 24       the question.  It's argumentative.

 25       A.    Only that we didn't tell people to 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  ignore it.  We told people to tell us if the site, 

  3  if the file was there.  So, no, we didn't tell 

  4  people to ignore it.  Did they ignore it to find 

  5  the file?  Perhaps.

  6       Q.    So that I gather, those people who you 

  7  instructed in the way you just testified to would 

  8  have included the site even if the site talked 

  9  about copying the movie?

 10       A.    It's possible. 

 11       Q.    You wouldn't --

 12       A.    It's possible.  We didn't proofread 

 13  other people's sites.

 14       Q.    When you encouraged people to download 

 15  DeCSS, did you regard that as a journalistic 

 16  function?

 17       A.    Well, I think we encouraged people to 

 18  download.

 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 20       question.

 21       A.    To download DeCSS.  We had it there for 

 22  people who were interested in it and we had a story 

 23  about it.  We didn't tell people to download it who 

 24  had no interest in it obviously.

 25       Q.    Were you linking to any sites before the 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  court issued its injunction?

  3       A.    We initially started by linking to sites 

  4  back in the fall. 

  5       Q.    How many is that?

  6       A.    I can't recall specifically how many.

  7       Q.    So you say you started by linking in the 

  8  fall of '99.

  9       A.    Uh-huh. 

 10       Q.    Thereafter did you stop and solely post?

 11       A.    We started -- my recollection is we 

 12  started by linking.  And then as those sites were 

 13  threatened, we became a link ourselves by posting 

 14  the program on our site.  And then there was no 

 15  need to -- we might have still kept up a list of 

 16  links in addition to that.

 17       Q.    But you don't know that.

 18       A.    I don't know for sure.  I would have to 

 19  look at the records.

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Leave a space in the 

 21       deposition.  We'll get you an answer.

 22             MR. GOLD:  The problem with that is I 

 23       don't know whose answer. 

 24             MR. GARBUS:  We'll tell you.

 25       A.    It's also on the web site.  As I said, 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  we keep our pages up except for when courts tell us 

  3  to take them down.  But it's all there the way it 

  4  was. 

  5       Q.    Did you increase your linking after the 

  6  court injunction?

  7       A.    We didn't increase so much as more sites 

  8  were submitted to us and more sites popped up and 

  9  it became, you know, it just kind of got out of 

 10  hand actually, because we couldn't handle the 

 11  number that were coming to us. 

 12       Q.    How many did you put up that you linked 

 13  to yourself?

 14       A.    Me personally? 

 15       Q.    Anybody at 2600.  

 16       A.    It would have to be over a hundred, and 

 17  this is within a few days of the injunction.

 18       Q.    So it's over a hundred links that you 

 19  yourself put up.

 20       A.    That I was aware of.  I don't know how 

 21  many specific --

 22       Q.    That was right after the court's 

 23  injunction?

 24       A.    Yes.  I believe it was --

 25       Q.    Why?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    -- the day of or the day after.

  3       Q.    Why?

  4       A.    It was basically a reaction that various 

  5  people in the community had.

  6       Q.    A reaction to the -- I am talking about 

  7  you.  You put up a hundred.  What reaction did you 

  8  have to the court injunction that caused you to do 

  9  that?

 10       A.    Our immediate reaction to the court 

 11  injunction was to take the files down.  We had 

 12  already had, I believe, links to other sites, and 

 13  when we started getting massive submissions, we 

 14  realized that we had to post those as well as part 

 15  of the story, because that was becoming a part of 

 16  the story.

 17       Q.    Now, you testified I believe that 2600 

 18  itself decided to link to over a hundred sites 

 19  pretty soon after the court injunction.

 20       A.    Uh-huh. 

 21       Q.    Why? 

 22       A.    Because as I said, that became the 

 23  story.  The fact that all these other sites were 

 24  popping up and that this was something that simply 

 25  wasn't going to go away, that became part of the 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  story and we had to show what was going on.  That 

  3  was a very major part.

  4       Q.    Under oath I am asking you didn't you do 

  5  the linking of those one hundred sites because you 

  6  were showing the court, well, if you think you can 

  7  stop us, you can't?

  8       A.    No, that was not the -- 

  9       Q.    Not at all. 

 10       A.    That was not our rationale behind it.  

 11  The rationale was that this is a program that is 

 12  out there.  We followed the injunction to the 

 13  letter.  In fact, the court even addressed the 

 14  issue of linking and found that it was a different 

 15  issue and did not rule on it.  So we took that to 

 16  mean that it was a different issue.  And that 

 17  linking was perfectly OK. 

 18             And if we were going to be shut down, 

 19  you know, we were going to be told not to link, 

 20  then obviously all the other sites that were 

 21  linking, including Yahoo and Alta Vista, would have 

 22  to be told the same thing.

 23       Q.    Did you have a conversation with any 

 24  lawyer --

 25       A.    Yes.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    -- before you linked?

  3       A.    Um --

  4       Q.    After the court issued its injunction.

  5       A.    We had conversations with lawyers at 

  6  that time. 

  7       Q.    Don't tell me what they were.  Could you 

  8  name who they were?

  9       A.    Allon Levy, Robin Gross, the Electronic 

 10  Frontier Foundation in California.

 11             MR. GOLD:  Before you switch, Martin, 

 12       you told me you wanted to break at 12:30.  

 13       We said yes, if that's when you want to 

 14       break.  And you have also kindly volunteered 

 15       to try to finish tonight even if we have to 

 16       stay a little late. 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  Yes.  

 18             MR. GOLD:  I can't tell if it will or 

 19       not.  

 20             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 12:26 

 21       p.m. and this completes tape number 3 of the 

 22       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 

 23       Goldstein. 

 24             (A luncheon recess was taken at 

 25       12:26 p.m.)        


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2           A F T E R N O O N    S E S S I O N

  3                (Time noted:  2:06 p.m.)

  4             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 2:06 

  5       p.m. and this begins tape number 4 of the 

  6       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 

  7       Goldstein.

  8  E M M A N U E L   G O L D S T E I N , resumed and 

  9       testified as follows:

 10  EXAMINATION BY (Cont'd.)

 11  MR. GOLD: 

 12       Q.    Mr. Goldstein, do I understand correctly 

 13  that your testimony was that you were posting and 

 14  later linking to other sites that were posting 

 15  DeCSS because that posting and that linking was a 

 16  part of your journalistic story?

 17       A.    That was part of the story, yes, that's 

 18  correct. 

 19       Q.    When did you write the story?

 20       A.    Well, the initial story was written I 

 21  believe it was early November on our site, and that 

 22  was the story that described the development which 

 23  at the time we were -- we had only sketchy details 

 24  about.  We reported what we knew.  And then later 

 25  we became part of the story, and that's when we 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  started writing a lot more about it.

  3       Q.    You didn't write about it every day, did 

  4  you?

  5       A.    No.  

  6       Q.    How long were you posting?

  7       A.    I'm sorry, how long what?  Was I 

  8  posting?

  9       Q.    Posting DeCSS on the 2600.

 10       A.    I think we first posted it in late 

 11  November.

 12       Q.    And you posted it late November right up 

 13  until the court injunction?

 14       A.    Yes.  As soon as the court injunction 

 15  happened, I believe it was January 20th, that's 

 16  when we took it down.

 17       Q.    So you were posting for close to two 

 18  months.

 19       A.    Yes.

 20       Q.    24 hours a day.

 21       A.    Well, it's just up.  Yes.

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Can I hear the end of it?  

 23             (A portion of the record was read.) 

 24       Q.    Can you tell me why that posting for two 

 25  months every day 24 hours a day was necessary to 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  your story?

  3       A.    Well, it's --

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.

  5       A.    Every story on our site is up 24 hours a 

  6  day constantly until the end of time.  So it's not 

  7  like we were sitting there saying, you know, it's 

  8  up 24 hours day and night.  It was a story and 

  9  people continued to have an interest in that story, 

 10  and that interest continues till today.

 11       Q.    Can you tell us why posting every day 

 12  was necessary for the story?

 13       A.    Well, as I've said --

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 15       A.    -- we did not post it every day.  We 

 16  posted it once and it stayed up.

 17       Q.    You didn't take it down, did you?

 18       A.    No.  It's one action, posting it.  We 

 19  took it down when we were ordered to take it down.

 20       Q.    Yes, but you could have taken it down 

 21  any day within that two-month period, couldn't you 

 22  have, if you wanted to?

 23       A.    If we wanted to, yes, but we didn't take 

 24  it down.

 25       Q.    Why not?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Because we felt it was right to have it 

  3  on our site.  We felt it was part of the story.

  4       Q.    But I am trying to understand why the 

  5  words "DeCSS" on your site for two months was 

  6  necessary to the story. 

  7       A.    Because that is what the story centers 

  8  around.  For instance, if the story centered around 

  9  the picture, we'd show the picture.  And this was 

 10  the picture.  This was the story that everybody was 

 11  focused on.  To take it down without a court order 

 12  would have been wrong in a journalistic sense.

 13       Q.    But you weren't writing a new story 

 14  about DeCSS every day, were you?

 15       A.    No, and we didn't post it every day.  We 

 16  posted it once. 

 17       Q.    And you didn't take it down for two 

 18  months, right?

 19       A.    We didn't take anything down. 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  Asked and 

 21       answered.

 22       Q.    How long have you been linking to other 

 23  sites that post DeCSS?

 24       A.    As I said earlier, I believe we had 

 25  links up from the beginning.  That is, before we 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  even had it up on our site.  I would have to check 

  3  to make absolutely certain about that, but the vast 

  4  majority of links started coming into us after the 

  5  injunction was granted. 

  6       Q.    And you have been linking to many other 

  7  sites posting DeCSS ever since?

  8       A.    We posted the list of what we had 

  9  received, and this went on for I think a few weeks 

 10  until we just got overwhelmed with it, and we had 

 11  to do other things, so we stopped updating it.

 12       Q.    So you have been linking to many other 

 13  sites containing DeCSS for about five months at 

 14  least?

 15       A.    I would say that's about right, yes.

 16       Q.    Every day.

 17       A.    Well, as I said, we don't take things 

 18  down.

 19       Q.    That's because you decide not to, I 

 20  gather.

 21       A.    Uh-huh. 

 22       Q.    Why was linking to over a hundred or 

 23  more sites that post DeCSS necessary to your 

 24  journalistic story?

 25             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Because that was part of the story.  The 

  3  story was that hundreds of sites were springing up 

  4  and showing support in various ways, all of which 

  5  had one thing in common, that they were posting the 

  6  source of this program, and we thought that was the 

  7  story right there.  That was something that 

  8  deserved attention, to show just how many people 

  9  were out there and what they were doing. 

 10       Q.    And it was necessary to the story to 

 11  show that every day for five months?

 12       A.    It was the story.  And the stories stay 

 13  up.  So the story will be up forever.  Until --

 14       Q.    I see.

 15       A.    That's how it works.

 16       Q.    Well, is it true that every story you 

 17  write in your magazine is vibrant and alive every 

 18  single day for the rest of eternity? 

 19             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 20       Q.    Or just your life?

 21       A.    Are you referring to the magazine or to 

 22  the web site? 

 23       Q.    Web site.

 24       A.    I wouldn't say that they all keep 

 25  interest as long as this one has, no.  


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    But if you didn't write a story every 

  3  day about DeCSS, why would you have to keep linking 

  4  to DeCSS every day 24 hours a day for five months?

  5       A.    I am not sure I understand that 

  6  question. 

  7       Q.    You don't understand it.

  8       A.    I am not sure I understand what you're 

  9  saying.

 10             MR. GOLD:  Could you read it back to 

 11       the witness. 

 12             (A portion of the record was read.)

 13       A.    I am not sure if you're saying that by 

 14  our writing stories that we're perpetuating the 

 15  need to link.  Is that your --

 16       Q.    No, you weren't writing stories every 

 17  day for five months.

 18       A.    We wrote stories whenever something new 

 19  happened in the case.

 20       Q.    But every single day whether you wrote 

 21  stories or didn't about DeCSS you linked to other 

 22  sites containing DeCSS for over five months?

 23       A.    As I've said, the story that we wrote 

 24  that had all the links remains up.  Because that 

 25  was a story -- I believe it was written in January, 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  and that has the list of all of the links, and 

  3  that's just there.  Just like the story we may have 

  4  written last week will be there in five months. 

  5       Q.    But it stays there because you don't 

  6  take it down, isn't that correct?

  7       A.    We don't take down our stories, no.  

  8       Q.    You take them down when the court orders 

  9  you to.

 10       A.    When the court orders us to take 

 11  something down, we take it down.

 12       Q.    Is there any other reason that you can 

 13  give me for why this posting and linking that we 

 14  have been discussing are part of your journalistic 

 15  story?  You don't have to repeat anything that 

 16  you've said already.  I am asking if you know any 

 17  other reasons or have any other reasons for saying 

 18  that.

 19       A.    I think I've covered it all.

 20       Q.    I see.  Will you keep linking to the web 

 21  sites posting DeCSS even if the pace of 

 22  technological change allows rapid transmission of 

 23  movies over the Internet? 

 24             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  You're 

 25       asking the witness to speculate.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    My answer is yes because it's 

  3  irrelevant. 

  4       Q.    Do you plan to keep linking to web sites 

  5  posting DeCSS even if the pace of technological 

  6  change makes the storage of movies on a hard drive 

  7  much easier, takes much less space? 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

  9       It calls for speculation.

 10       A.    I would say the same thing.  It's 

 11  irrelevant to what the story is about. 

 12       Q.    So you will keep right on linking or 

 13  posting if the court allows to.

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object. 

 15             MR. GOLD:  Strike that.

 16       Q.    Then I gather no matter what 

 17  technological developments may bring, your plans 

 18  are to keep posting and linking DeCSS unless the 

 19  court stops it. 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  Calls for 

 21       speculation.

 22       A.    I can repeat what I said about we keep 

 23  stories on our web site because it's how we present 

 24  our stories.  We don't take things down.  If we're 

 25  directed to take it down, we take it down.


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  2       Q.    So the answer to my question is yes.

  3       A.    I suppose, yes.

  4       Q.    Are your plans to keep linking to DeCSS 

  5  web sites even were you to determine that hundreds 

  6  of thousands of movies were being transmitted over 

  7  the Internet? 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  Object on the grounds it 

  9       calls for speculation.

 10       A.    Again, I have to repeat.

 11       Q.    Your answer would be the same.

 12       A.    My answer would be the same. 

 13       Q.    So your current plans are to do all of 

 14  these things no matter which of the changes that I 

 15  have just mentioned take place; is that true?

 16       A.    Again, it's -- I can't speculate on 

 17  that.  Our site is a representation of new stories.  

 18  That is part of the news story. 

 19       Q.    So your plans would remain to keep 

 20  posting or linking. 

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.

 22       Q.    Is that true?

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object on the 

 24       grounds of it calls for speculation.

 25       A.    I can't answer any further based on 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  that.

  3       Q.    Did you testify before, I can't 

  4  remember, that you were familiar with Napster?

  5       A.    I said I used it maybe once or twice. 

  6       Q.    So you know how it works?

  7       A.    I have a vague knowledge of how it 

  8  works.  I am no expert.

  9       Q.    Do you know that it's a system which 

 10  allows members of the public with Internet access 

 11  to share files of songs with each other?

 12       A.    My understanding of it is that it allows 

 13  people to -- it's kind of like a directory.  It 

 14  points people at sites. 

 15       Q.    So they can exchange music?  Is that 

 16  your understanding?

 17       A.    I don't know what the intent is.  I 

 18  mean, that's --

 19       Q.    Well, when you used it did you use it to 

 20  download some music you found on Napster?

 21       A.    I used it to see how the program worked, 

 22  to see what the fuss was all about, to see if it 

 23  actually worked.

 24       Q.    Did you download music?

 25       A.    I listened to one song.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Does that mean you downloaded it on to 

  3  your hard drive?

  4       A.    Yes, it was downloaded.  That's the way 

  5  it works.  You connect to somebody's site and you 

  6  listen to it.

  7       Q.    Do you know whether or not there are 

  8  sites in the United States today that offer such 

  9  file sharing for both movies and records?

 10       A.    I am not aware of any.

 11       Q.    If you were to find out that there were, 

 12  would you stop posting or linking to DeCSS? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object on the grounds 

 14       that it calls for speculation. 

 15       Q.    If you found that out would you plan to 

 16  keep on, do you now plan to keep on posting and 

 17  linking?

 18       A.    I can't answer that.  It's based on a 

 19  speculation.  I can't really --

 20       Q.    You don't know one way or another; is 

 21  that right?

 22       A.    Other than what I have already testified 

 23  to.

 24       Q.    Well, you've already testified that it's 

 25  not the point.  But I don't know if that's your 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  answer to this question. 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to --

  4       Q.    Is it?

  5             MR. GARBUS:  -- your summing up what 

  6       he's testified to.

  7       Q.    Is that right?

  8       A.    My answer is what I have given, which 

  9  is --

 10       Q.    Which is what?

 11       A.    What I've said.

 12       Q.    Which is what? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He's already 

 14       testified that it was speculation. 

 15       Q.    Which is what, Mr. Goldstein?

 16       A.    Which is that it's irrelevant to the 

 17  story.

 18       Q.    And you would keep posting and linking.

 19       A.    We have already posted.  It's not a 

 20  question of continuing to post.  It's a question of 

 21  we've done this.

 22       Q.    You wouldn't take down your posts or 

 23  your links?

 24       A.    We take down our sites when we're 

 25  legally obligated to take down our -- our links 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  rather.

  3       Q.    Someone would have to get another 

  4  injunction if one wanted to get you to take it down 

  5  at that point.  Is that true?

  6             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He didn't say 

  7       that.  He said --

  8             MR. GOLD:  Well, let's ask him what he 

  9       said.  I asked him if that were true.

 10             MR. GARBUS:  No, no.  He said --

 11  MO         MR. GOLD:  Do you want to mark this 

 12       again?

 13             MR. GARBUS:  That's not what he said. 

 14             Can we hear the witness's last answer.  

 15             (A portion of the record was read.)

 16       Q.    Do you know whether or not the vast 

 17  majority of sites to which you were linking contain 

 18  object code versions of DeCSS? 

 19             MR. GARBUS:  He has already -- you 

 20       have already asked him that and he's already 

 21       answered.

 22       Q.    You can answer.

 23       A.    As far as my understanding, it's in a 

 24  variety of formats.  I am not -- I am not certain 

 25  if object code is one of them. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Does that mean you don't know?

  3       A.    I don't know for sure. 

  4       Q.    Can you read object code?

  5       A.    No.  

  6       Q.    Can you read source code?

  7       A.    Not very well. 

  8       Q.    Are there any sites to which you link 

  9  where you know that DeCSS is being used in 

 10  connection with reverse engineering?

 11       A.    As I said before, I don't know the 

 12  motivation of what's going on in the heads of 

 13  people that are running other sites.  All we know 

 14  is those sites have programs.  That's the extent of 

 15  our knowledge.

 16       Q.    Do you understand that people involved 

 17  in reverse engineering could get DeCSS without 

 18  anyone posting or linking?

 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 20       question.

 21       A.    Sure.

 22       Q.    How?

 23       A.    If they already had the program -- if 

 24  they already had CSS themselves and they were able 

 25  to figure it all out, they could do it without even 


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  2  being on the Net at all.

  3       Q.    Isn't there a chat room where people who 

  4  are involved in reverse engineering of CSS go to?

  5       A.    That I don't know. 

  6       Q.    You don't know?

  7       A.    No. 

  8       Q.    Is there a chat room to which people who 

  9  are involved in cryptographical research concerning 

 10  DeCSS can go to?

 11       A.    Again, I don't know.

 12       Q.    Did you ever try to find out?

 13       A.    No. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Can I ask you a question?  

 15       I won't if it's an interference.

 16             MR. GOLD:  It's interference.  I 

 17       prefer you just to say object and nothing 

 18       else whenever you do, but I don't know that 

 19       you will do that.

 20       Q.    Do you still have your May 3rd affidavit 

 21  in front of you?

 22       A.    There's no date on it.

 23       Q.    There is on the back page.

 24       A.    Oh, on the back page, OK.  Yes, I do. 

 25       Q.    If lawyers do something it's going to 


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  2  come out backwards.

  3             Turning to paragraph 20 at page 7, I am 

  4  going to count down from the top, beginning with 

  5  the line that says "Our web site...."

  6       A.    OK. 

  7       Q.    Now, one, two, three, four, five, 

  8  six -- make it five lines down, "This web site is 

  9  an on-line...."  Do you see that?

 10       A.    Yes.  "This web site is an on-line 

 11  supplement to the content published in the print 

 12  magazine, with an emphasis on current news.  It 

 13  does not exist, as said in the injunction, to 

 14  distribute illegal code.  If we were interested in 

 15  doing this, we could easily do a more efficient job 

 16  and a less public one." 

 17       Q.    How?

 18       A.    Well, I am not involved in the world of 

 19  piracy, but I do know that if you wanted to 

 20  distribute something illegally you don't, um, you 

 21  don't  put it out for the whole world to see.  

 22  You -- criminal networks don't advertise.  They 

 23  exist secretly.  They're a lot more efficient when 

 24  people don't know about them.  If we believed this 

 25  was a crime, we wouldn't be doing it like this.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Well, you say here, "If we were 

  3  interested in doing this...." which I think means 

  4  the distribution, the illegal distribution of the 

  5  code.

  6       A.    Uh-huh. 

  7       Q.    ".... we could easily do a more 

  8  efficient job and a less public one." 

  9             I am asking you how you would do that. 

 10             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  He just 

 11       answered.

 12             MR. GOLD:  No, he didn't.

 13       A.    It's a theoretical question.  I am not a 

 14  criminal.  I am not somebody who distributes things 

 15  illegally.  But I imagine if I was to do something 

 16  like this, the way I wouldn't do it would be to put 

 17  it on my web site and tell everybody about it.

 18       Q.    It was my impression that you were 

 19  swearing to the statement that we could do a more 

 20  efficient and less public job if we were distributing 

 21  illegal code.  I am asking you why you said that.

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 

 23       sentence speaks for itself. 

 24       Q.    How would you do a more efficient, less 

 25  public job?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  Object.  He just 

  3       answered.

  4       A.    I thought I just answered this too.  

  5  But what I am trying to point out is that if we 

  6  were involved in a criminal conspiracy of some 

  7  sort, the way we are doing it now, the way we have 

  8  it up on our web site, would be absolutely the 

  9  worst, most inefficient way to both engage in the 

 10  crime and distribute the criminal material.

 11       Q.    What would be the better way?

 12       A.    To have an organized network of people 

 13  that keep quiet, that don't tell the entire world 

 14  about it, to surreptitiously distribute the code 

 15  everywhere, were it to be used in a bad way for a 

 16  particular crime.  And that's not what this code is 

 17  about.  So I don't think it's relevant at all. 

 18       Q.    Weren't you describing the Internet?  

 19  People with false names, putting things out.  How 

 20  does anyone find you except by writing you an 

 21  E-mail?  How do they locate you?  How do they talk 

 22  to you in person?

 23       A.    The same way --

 24             MR GARBUS:  Objection.

 25       A.    -- people locate anything on the 


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  2  Internet, through search engines, through publicity 

  3  at various --

  4       Q.    That just gets one to a web site.

  5       A.    What else are you asking? 

  6       Q.    Well, how would they find a person?  How 

  7  would they find a person to conspire with?

  8       A.    Again, if you're involved in a crime -- 

  9  I truly can't answer that, because I am not 

 10  involved in a crime.  So I don't know how they 

 11  would --

 12       Q.    Currently.  I mean, it's not like you 

 13  never did.  It's not like you were never involved. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 15       Q.    You have some --

 16             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 17       Q.    -- information about such things.

 18       A.    All I can do is theorize on that.

 19       Q.    All you can do is, as I remember it, is 

 20  break into other people's computers.

 21             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 22       Q.    All you did do in the eighties --

 23             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 24       Q.    -- that was criminal.  Is that right? 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    First of all that predates the 

  3  Internet.  And second of all, it's not all I did in 

  4  the eighties. 

  5       Q.    Paragraph 21, below paragraph 20, will 

  6  you read the first two sentences of that paragraph, 

  7  sir?

  8       A.    "The sites containing DeCSS mirrors to 

  9  which we currently link are very diverse in nature.  

 10  Some of the sites have simply put the files up as a 

 11  form of protest." 

 12       Q.    And the next sentence.

 13       A.    "Others explain exactly why they are 

 14  doing this as a social commentary."

 15       Q.    You go on to say, "Some are juvenile in 

 16  nature, using a tone that we would not employ 

 17  ourselves"; is that right?

 18       A.    As that site demonstrated, yes.

 19       Q.    The site that said what?

 20       A.    The site that you introduced as Exhibit 6. 

 21       Q.    What was juvenile about it?

 22       A.    The language was juvenile.  The attitude 

 23  was juvenile.

 24       Q.    Which language?

 25       A.    The multiple cursing and antigovernment 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  DVD "ho" speak.  It's not at all how we would 

  3  present ourselves. 

  4       Q.    Are there any web sites containing DeCSS 

  5  mirrors who are doing it solely to copy DVDs and 

  6  allow other people to copy DVDs?

  7       A.    I have never heard of one. 

  8       Q.    Is the answer you don't know or just --

  9       A.    My answer is no, I've never heard of 

 10  one. 

 11       Q.    No, you never heard of them. 

 12             Which sites do you know that have put 

 13  DeCSS on their web site solely as a form of social 

 14  protest?  Could you name those?

 15       A.    I would have to have a list.  I would 

 16  have to go through them.  I can think of -- I can 

 17  think of cryptome.org as a site that has posted the 

 18  source code.  And I know they are not juvenile in 

 19  nature.

 20       Q.    Which sites post DeCSS or link to DeCSS 

 21  that are composed only of professionals who go into 

 22  great detail as to what the programs do and how 

 23  they are used?

 24       A.    Again, you have to go down the list.

 25       Q.    Can you name any?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Not off the top of my head, no.  

  3  Actually, that's not true.  I can think of one.  

  4  OpenDVD.org is one that has very intelligent views.  

  5  If I thought about it for a long time, I could 

  6  probably come up with a second one.  There are 

  7  various --

  8       Q.    Out of how many would you estimate?

  9       A.    I am not saying that's all there is out 

 10  of all --

 11       Q.    No, I am just asking you how many sites 

 12  are there today that post or link to other sites.

 13       A.    Oh, there are thousands.  I mean, we 

 14  have only a couple of hundred on our site, but 

 15  there are thousands.

 16       Q.    I see.  And you can think of only two 

 17  who do so as a form of social protest?

 18       A.    If you ask me how many were juvenile, I 

 19  can think of even less, because I don't memorize 

 20  URLs of web sites.

 21       Q.    Is it your understanding that DeCSS 

 22  enables users to defeat or bypass regional coding?

 23       A.    That's my understanding, that it's one 

 24  of the capabilities.

 25       Q.    Where did you get that understanding 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  from?

  3       A.    From technical information that I have 

  4  seen.  Talked to people on the Net.

  5       Q.    Can you name the people who identify any 

  6  of the information?

  7       A.    I believe I have seen this on a couple 

  8  of the sites that I mentioned just now.  I have 

  9  seen mention of that.  I know from talking to 

 10  people at conferences, from various other 

 11  exchanges, at 2600 meetings and just various casual 

 12  conversations that that is -- that is one of the 

 13  things that DeCSS is able to accomplish, defeating 

 14  region coding. 

 15       Q.    And what is region coding?

 16       A.    Region coding is an artificial control 

 17  that was implemented I believe by the DVD CCA to 

 18  prevent someone from watching a DVD in a different 

 19  country.  It's the equivalent of, if it happened to 

 20  a CD, you would not be able to buy a CD in England 

 21  and listen to it here.  Something that we're used 

 22  to doing.

 23       Q.    Do you know why plaintiffs use regional 

 24  coding?

 25       A.    I have no idea.  I tried to figure that 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  one out.

  3       Q.    You can't imagine.

  4       A.    I imagine it has something to do with 

  5  money.  That's as far as I can go. 

  6       Q.    Anything having anything to do with 

  7  money is bad. 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  9       A.    I didn't say that.

 10       Q.    How much do you make a year from your 

 11  magazine? 

 12       A.    In the range of 40 to 45,000.

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Let the record indicate 

 14       that I gave Mr. Gold the tax returns.  I 

 15       don't think it's relevant to this 

 16       deposition, but since it's more confidential 

 17       for a period of time, and rather than have a 

 18       difficult time with Mr. Gold, those 

 19       documents were furnished to him.

 20             MR. GOLD:  You are correct insofar as 

 21       you go, but you travel such a short 

 22       distance.  You came in here after lunch 

 23       today with a package that you put on the 

 24       table and you said contained some tax 

 25       returns. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             I assume you're telling the truth.  I 

  3       haven't had a chance to look into it yet.  

  4       That's the rest of it. 

  5             MR. LITVACK:  Let me interject.  I 

  6       believe you said they were marked 

  7       confidential? 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  The whole deposition is 

  9       marked confidential. 

 10             MR. LITVACK:   Oh, these documents.

 11             MR. GARBUS:  No, but I think 

 12       everything that goes into the deposition, as 

 13       I understand it, is confidential, all 

 14       documents, everything, until such time --

 15             MR. GOLD:  Until ten days, I think. 

 16             MR. GARBUS:  Until ten days and then 

 17       there has to be some kind of a procedure or 

 18       practice that we go through. 

 19       Q.    Is it your understanding that your 

 20  linking to sites containing DeCSS is a fair use?

 21       A.    That my linking in particular? 

 22       Q.    Would you like the question read back to 

 23  you?

 24       A.    I'm sorry? 

 25       Q.    Do you want the question read back?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Yes. 

  3             (A portion of the record was read.)

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question 

  5       on the grounds it calls for a legal 

  6       conclusion.

  7       A.    I am trying to understand it.  That's --

  8       Q.    You don't have any understanding then 

  9  about that.

 10       A.    It's -- it calls for a legal 

 11  interpretation.

 12       Q.    No, I am asking you for your 

 13  understanding as a journalist, if you have any.

 14       A.    I can't say I do on that particular 

 15  issue. 

 16       Q.    OK.  Is it true, sir, that you believe 

 17  you are lawfully linking to sites that post DeCSS?

 18       A.    Yes.

 19       Q.    Is a part of the reason for that belief 

 20  the use made of DeCSS by people who go to your web 

 21  site and then link over to another site that 

 22  contains DeCSS and then download it?

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 24       the question. 

 25       Q.    In other words, I'm asking you whether 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  it's true that you believe it's appropriate for you 

  3  to link because of the use some people make of 

  4  DeCSS.  Like cryptography.

  5             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

  6       Q.    Like cryptographical research.  I'm 

  7  sorry, those are the same thing.  Like reverse 

  8  engineering.

  9             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  He has 

 10       already testified.  It's a bad question.

 11       A.    Our reason for initially posting the 

 12  material was for that very reason, and the linking 

 13  is a continuation of that.  So I suppose that would 

 14  be yes. 

 15       Q.    I see.

 16       A.    If I understand the question correctly. 

 17       Q.    And is it true that you can think of no 

 18  other way to give DeCSS to those people other than 

 19  by linking in the manner that you are doing it? 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.  That 

 21       isn't what he said.

 22       A.    We're not thinking of ways to get it to 

 23  people.  We've posted it, we did post it on our 

 24  site.  It was part of a story.  The linking is also 

 25  part of the story. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             As I said before, if we wanted to 

  3  distribute it to people, I am sure there are a lot 

  4  more efficient ways of doing that.  That's not what 

  5  it was about.

  6       Q.    So you didn't link to other sites 

  7  containing DeCSS and you didn't originally post to 

  8  help cryptographers and to help reverse engineers. 

  9             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.

 10       Q.    Is that true? 

 11             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 

 12       question.

 13       A.    It's related, I mean, it's all part of 

 14  the quest for knowledge, and that's why the story 

 15  is of interest and that's why we put the story on 

 16  our site, so that people who are interested in 

 17  reverse engineering and cryptology, research in 

 18  that field, would have something to study, as 

 19  something to analyze and perhaps study something 

 20  else as a result of this.  

 21             MR. GOLD:  I am going to ask the 

 22       reporter to read that question back to you 

 23       and I am going to ask you if there's 

 24       anything you have to add to your answer. 

 25             (A portion of the record was read.)


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  2       Q.    Is it also true that you believed it was 

  3  appropriate to post or link the sites that post 

  4  DeCSS so that anyone in the country or in the world 

  5  who wanted to know about DeCSS could get DeCSS?

  6       A.    We believe knowledge should be available 

  7  to anyone, yes.

  8       Q.    So the answer is yes?

  9       A.    Yes.  

 10       Q.    You referred in your testimony to movie 

 11  reviewers who make clips of movies.

 12       A.    Uh-huh.

 13       Q.    And that was one fair use of DeCSS.  Do 

 14  you remember that?

 15       A.    That's an example of fair use, period, 

 16  yes.

 17       Q.    Can't the same thing be done by using a 

 18  CSS-licensed DVD player?

 19       A.    That's not my understanding of how the 

 20  technology works.

 21       Q.    It's not.

 22       A.    No.  You wouldn't be able to copy to 

 23  another medium such as videotape.

 24       Q.    Do you know whether a CSS-licensed DVD 

 25  player enables the user to fast forward through the 


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  2  movie?

  3       A.    My understanding is that it does not.

  4       Q.    Where did you get that from?

  5       A.    I heard that from, again, numerous 

  6  sources in the community. 

  7       Q.    Which community?

  8       A.    The Linux community, open source 

  9  community, the hacking community.  And it's -- I 

 10  believe it's well documented in the specs for CSS, 

 11  that if that is not commonly used at the moment, 

 12  that the capability certainly exists for that to be 

 13  currently used.  That CSS enables that.

 14       Q.    If you have a view, what is your view of 

 15  how quickly technology is accelerating in regard to 

 16  the delivery of substantial amounts of file content 

 17  over the Internet? 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 

 19       witness speculating.  Go ahead.

 20       A.    It's advancing.  I wouldn't say it's 

 21  advancing extremely fast.  It's advancing.

 22       Q.    And that knowledge comes from --

 23       A.    Personal experience. 

 24       Q.    -- all these communities that you're 

 25  talking about.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    No, that's personal experience.  

  3  Obviously things do get faster.  But they are not 

  4  getting extremely fast.  I think we're a ways away 

  5  from that.

  6       Q.    How long is that, quote, a ways away --

  7             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  8       the question. 

  9       Q.    -- close quote?

 10       A.    I would consider it many, many years.

 11       Q.    And you heard that from these same 

 12  communities that you chat with?

 13       A.    I have heard that, but I have also 

 14  witnessed it myself.

 15       Q.    How can you witness things that haven't 

 16  happened?

 17       A.    No, I have witnessed the change, say, 

 18  between the early nineties and now.  And even if 

 19  you were to triple that, it still would not be 

 20  anything near what would be needed, what would be 

 21  needed to facilitate this.

 22       Q.    Is it your understanding that it's 

 23  impossible to create an unbreakable encryption 

 24  system? 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       I will allow the witness to answer.  He is 

  3       not a cryptographer.

  4       A.    My understanding is that it's highly 

  5  unlikely.  Highly unlikely.  And I think that's my 

  6  personal view on it, my understanding.

  7       Q.    In your view is any encryption system no 

  8  matter how sophisticated subject to cracking if 

  9  enough time and effort is devoted to it?

 10             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  He 

 11       is not a cryptographer.

 12       A.    My understanding is that given enough 

 13  time and effort, yes.

 14       Q.    And your understanding comes from?

 15       A.    Mostly my personal view.  Also 

 16  supplemented by various conversations I have had 

 17  over the years with people seeing how technology 

 18  advances.

 19             MR. GOLD:  We'll mark this as 

 20       Exhibit 7.

 21             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 7, 2-page 

 22       document, 2600 News Archives, December 1999, 

 23       marked for identification, as of this date.)

 24       Q.    Turning to the second page of that, 

 25  Mr. Goldstein, the beginning of the first full 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  paragraph, second sentence, the beginning of the 

  3  first full paragraph on page 2, could you read the 

  4  first several sentences.

  5       A.    "We don't take this kind of thing 

  6  lightly.  We knew there were certain risks attached 

  7  to our taking a stand on the DVD issue.  That in 

  8  itself seems incredible to us as we had nothing to 

  9  do with the actual cracking of the encryption." 

 10       Q.    What were the risks that you referred 

 11  to?

 12       A.    The risks were basically we had seen 

 13  people being threatened simply for having DeCSS on 

 14  their web site, something that we found to be 

 15  inconceivable.  And we realized at that point, once 

 16  it started happening to us, or we -- actually, we 

 17  realized it as we posted the information on our 

 18  site that that could very well move over to us, as 

 19  it did, that there's risks involved in freedom of 

 20  speech.  There always are.

 21       Q.    In answering to the last question you 

 22  used the expression what would "move over to us."  

 23  And I don't know what that means, but I am going to 

 24  ask the reporter to read you your answer and I am 

 25  going to ask you to tell me what that means, what 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  would move to us.

  3             (A portion of the record was read.) 

  4       Q.    What would move over to us are the 

  5  words that are -- 

  6       A.    The threats, the intimidation. 

  7       Q.    And the threats you're referring to are 

  8  threats of lawsuits?

  9       A.    Threats of lawsuits and actual lawsuits, 

 10  yes.

 11       Q.    And what intimidation?  Is intimidation 

 12  something different from that?

 13       A.    No, I consider that intimidation right 

 14  there. 

 15       Q.    But you do believe that people in this 

 16  country have a right to take others to court when 

 17  they feel their rights have been violated?

 18       A.    It's the American way.

 19       Q.    You don't like that way when you're on 

 20  the defendants' side?

 21       A.    I don't think anybody likes to be on the 

 22  defending side of it, but there's nothing illegal 

 23  about it if that's what you're asking.

 24       Q.    But it's intimidating.

 25       A.    Yes, it absolutely can be. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Can you think of any way to avoid that 

  3  kind of intimidation?

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

  5       the question.

  6       A.    In this particular case I think some 

  7  kind of a dialogue, some kind of willingness to 

  8  learn from one's mistakes as far as developing 

  9  technology.  I think there's a lot to be learned 

 10  here.  I think we could have a strengthened 

 11  encryption system.  We can have something that will 

 12  work and won't fall apart quite as quickly as this 

 13  did.

 14       Q.    Later in this column, I for the first 

 15  time take great pleasure in your writing, and the 

 16  words that give me that pleasure are contained in 

 17  the middle of the next paragraph beginning with 

 18  "They may very well."  Would you read those two 

 19  lines?

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, I think that if 

 21       you look at it, compliment aside, according 

 22       to the page you put down, this is not his 

 23       writing.  Someone else's. 

 24       Q.    Did you not write this?

 25       A.    I would have to look this over. 


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  2       Q.    Why don't you give it a lookover. 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  Excuse me, Mr. Gold.  If 

  4       you look at the last sentence --

  5             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, there is no 

  6       question before the witness yet.  Do you 

  7       think you can refrain from making a speech?

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I am trying to help you. 

  9             MR. GOLD:  Good.  I am grateful for 

 10       your instinct, but I would prefer you not 

 11       help me.

 12       A.    I think this was a collaboration.  I 

 13  think most of the first part, including the first 

 14  two items before this, I mostly put together and 

 15  the rest is, um, the rest of the facts in here I 

 16  believe were done by our webmaster and I approved 

 17  it.

 18  MO         MR. GOLD:  Mr. Reporter, before the 

 19       witness answered the question, Mr. Garbus 

 20       stated on the record that this was not his 

 21       writing.  That statement was followed by the 

 22       witness's answer.  I would like you to mark 

 23       that. 

 24       Q.    Now, who wrote the two lines you read?

 25       A.    I believe that was written by our 


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  2  webmaster, but again, I can't be one hundred 

  3  percent certain because this was -- I am not sure 

  4  when this was written.

  5       Q.    I think you gave me his name once 

  6  before, but I forget it.  Can you tell me who he 

  7  is?

  8       A.    His webmaster, E-mail address is 

  9  Macki@2600.com.  His first name is Micah.  And 

 10  that's pretty much -- I have met him a couple of 

 11  times and he is from California.  That's the extent 

 12  of my knowledge.

 13       Q.    That's where he is now.

 14       A.    Yes. 

 15       Q.    Do you have an address? 

 16       A.    I don't have an address.  I have an 

 17  E-mail address. 

 18       Q.    And what is it?

 19       A.    Macki@2600.com.

 20             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, I would like to 

 21       take Macki's deposition, probably for about 

 22       two hours or an hour and a half.

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I would have to contact 

 24       him.

 25             MR. GOLD:  Would you? 


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  2             MR. GARBUS:  I will try.

  3             MR. GOLD:  And let me know if -- can 

  4       you tell us how to make arrangements, or 

  5       perhaps make arrangements for us?  One of 

  6       the times that we're all going to be out 

  7       there anyway. 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't know how we'd 

  9       work out those times, but yes, if I can.

 10             MR. GOLD:  It's going to be a very 

 11       fast thing.  If we fit it at the very 

 12       beginning.

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I am not clear about one 

 14       thing.  Maybe you can help me.

 15             MR. GOLD:  I would rather you not do.  

 16       After the deposition is over, we're off the 

 17       record, then I would be happy to discuss 

 18       with you anything you want to discuss. 

 19       Q.    Did you read this before it was 

 20  published on your web site?

 21       A.    Yes. 

 22       Q.    Did you believe it was true?

 23       A.    I believed it was -- yeah. 

 24       Q.    Which prosecutions does this refer to 

 25  from the clause "A recent look at prosecutions"?


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  2       A.    This is probably referring to various 

  3  cases that have been in the hacker community, 

  4  namely, the Kevin Metnick case, the Bernie S case.  

  5  This is over the course of years.  That's what is 

  6  meant by recent. 

  7       Q.    Recent is how many years?

  8       A.    Several.  Throughout the nineties.  I 

  9  consider that to be recent.  And --

 10       Q.    What new laws are referred to?

 11       A.    Laws like digital telephony, the DMCA,  

 12  Electronic Communications Privacy Act.  Laws such 

 13  as that. 

 14       Q.    Does this statement indicate 2600's view 

 15  that posting or linking to DeCSS was as a matter of 

 16  law illegal? 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.  The 

 18       sentence speaks for itself.

 19       A.    I'm sorry.  Can you ask that one more 

 20  time? 

 21       Q.    Of course.  

 22             MR. GOLD:  Would you read that back to 

 23       the witness.

 24             (A portion of the record was read.)

 25       A.    No, absolutely not.  We never thought it 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  was illegal. 

  3       Q.    Do the two sentences you just read mean 

  4  that before you were involved in the lawsuit you 

  5  knew it was inappropriate to post DeCSS?

  6       A.    No.  

  7             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  8       A.    That's not what I said. 

  9       Q.    Does the sentence, "A recent look at 

 10  prosecutions and new laws seems to pave the way for 

 11  just this sort of thing," mean that these 

 12  prosecutions and the decisions in them and the new 

 13  laws make it illegal to post DeCSS? 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 

 15       witness interpreting sentences.  The 

 16       sentences say what they say.

 17       A.    I don't see it that way. 

 18       Q.    What way do you see it?

 19       A.    Could you read back the question? 

 20       Q.    Certainly. 

 21             (A portion of the record was read.)

 22       A.    Basically I am trying to interpret what 

 23  the sentence is communicating in terms of this 

 24  case. 

 25       Q.    Do you find that difficult to do? 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

  3       A.    Basically what we were trying to say is 

  4  that there have been increasing numbers of 

  5  prosecutions in recent months, recent years, and 

  6  that something that was not considered to be at all 

  7  even questionably illegal could all of a sudden be 

  8  brought into court and people could wind up being 

  9  dragged through the legal system. 

 10             And what we had seen over many years 

 11  was, or recent years anyway, was people who just 

 12  got tired of the whole system who were dragged 

 13  through everything and were forced to give up 

 14  without ever having proven the case, having had the 

 15  case proven against them.  So it's hard for me to 

 16  recapture the mood that was around when this 

 17  article was written because it was back in 

 18  December.

 19       Q.    I didn't ask you for the mood.  I asked 

 20  you for what it says.

 21       A.    You have to sort of get into the mood to 

 22  see what the words are communicating and saying. 

 23       Q.    I don't find that to be true when I read 

 24  The New York Times.

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Do you find that difficulty?

  3       A.    Well, this is an opinion piece.  This is 

  4  different.

  5       Q.    When you're reading the editorial pages 

  6  of the The New York Times, do you find that not 

  7  knowing the mood of editorial writer?

  8             MR GARBUS:  Objection.

  9       A.    I think if you went back to, say, 1920 

 10  or something you might have some difficulty knowing 

 11  exactly what the person was talking about.  We have 

 12  seen a lot changes over the months, so I am trying 

 13  to gauge exactly what was written and by who. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to this 

 15       colloquy.

 16       Q.    Could you read the last sentence of the 

 17  same paragraph, sir?

 18       A.    "But all of the scare tactics in the 

 19  world will never erase the human need for knowledge 

 20  and the instinctive desire to figure out things, 

 21  regardless of whether or not we're, quote, supposed 

 22  to, end quote."

 23       Q.    What do the words "supposed to" mean in 

 24  that sentence?

 25       A.    I believe that's a reference to 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  knowledge being regulated.  In other words, people 

  3  being told that asking certain questions is wrong, 

  4  pursuing certain -- certain ways of figuring things 

  5  out is wrong.  And I believe at that time we had 

  6  been hearing a lot of talk along those lines, that 

  7  it would be one day illegal to do -- to even think 

  8  in certain ways.  So I think that's what this is 

  9  based on. 

 10       Q.    Does the expression "regardless of 

 11  whether or not we're 'supposed to'" include the 

 12  concept of whether or not what we do is illegal? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.  The sentence 

 14       speaks for itself.

 15       A.    Could you read back the question.  I 

 16  want to make sure I answer it right.

 17       Q.    Sure. 

 18             (A portion of the record was read.)

 19       A.    I believe most definitely we did not 

 20  think anything that we were doing was illegal.

 21       Q.    I didn't ask you that.  I asked you if 

 22  the words "regardless of whether or not we're 

 23  'supposed to'" includes the concept regardless of 

 24  whether or not these things are legal.

 25       A.    No.


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  2       Q.    It does not. 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  I object to it.

  4       A.    Not in my understanding, no.  

  5       Q.    Well, did you understand at the time 

  6  this article was written that a citizen in this 

  7  country was expected to and supposed to follow the 

  8  law?

  9       A.    Yes.

 10       Q.    Do you recall whether or not you ever 

 11  wrote and published on your web site the statement 

 12  that big companies manipulate the courts in this 

 13  country?

 14       A.    I need to see a particular quote. 

 15       Q.    You don't remember whether or not you 

 16  ever said that?

 17       A.    Specifically in those words? 

 18       Q.    In words or in substance.

 19       A.    It's possible.  That's the best I can 

 20  do.  It's possible.  I don't know specifically if I 

 21  ever said that. 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold, can I suggest 

 23       you show it to him? 

 24             MR. GOLD:  No.  Can I suggest that you 

 25       not interrupt?


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  2             I have to take a break, but I am going 

  3       to turn this over to my co-counsel for some 

  4       questions. 

  5             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 3:05 p.m.  

  6       We're going off the record. 

  7             (A recess was taken.)

  8             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 3:14 p.m.  

  9       We're back on the record. 

 10  EXAMINATION BY

 11  MR. LITVACK: 

 12       Q.    Good afternoon, Mr. Goldstein.  My name 

 13  the Mark Litvack.  I am an attorney for the 

 14  plaintiffs in this action. 

 15             Your counsel indicated he handed us a 

 16  stack of documents this afternoon purporting to be 

 17  your tax returns.  I have handed to you the entire 

 18  stack. 

 19             Can you just tell us what it is?

 20       A.    These are tax returns, both corporate 

 21  and individual, going back to 1995. 

 22       Q.    I note they are not signed.

 23       A.    These are copies. 

 24       Q.    Are they exact copies of what was 

 25  actually filed with the Internal Revenue Service?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    These are copies that my accountant 

  3  supplied, so they are as exact as was possible to 

  4  get as far as I know. 

  5       Q.    So as far as you know, there is no 

  6  difference between this set and the set filed 

  7  absent your signature.

  8       A.    Right. 

  9       Q.    Is there something in there that you 

 10  know is not true and you later had to go file 

 11  either a change or you looked at it later and said, 

 12  Jeez, I should have changed that, or to the best of 

 13  your knowledge is everything in there true and 

 14  accurate?

 15       A.    Everything in there is true and 

 16  accurate.

 17             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Litvack, if there were 

 18       any supplemental returns --

 19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, they would be in 

 20       there too.

 21             MR GARBUS:  -- I will check with the 

 22       accountant and get it to you.

 23             MR. LITVACK:  I am not suggesting 

 24       there is.  Sometimes people say, jeez, I 

 25       meant --


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             THE WITNESS:  Right. 

  3             MR. LITVACK:  That's it with that 

  4       document.

  5       Q.    In the last document --

  6             MR. GARBUS:  Do you want to mark it? 

  7             MR. LITVACK:  No, no need. 

  8       Q.    -- you commented in this piece, it was 

  9  commented that "it's one more example of a powerful 

 10  corporate entity trying to intimidate a bunch of 

 11  individuals through lawyers, guns and money." 

 12             You chuckle now as I read that to you.  

 13  What's the chuckle?

 14       A.    Well, I am not sure if those are my 

 15  words.  They're kind of -- I am not sure what the 

 16  word is.  Strident maybe? 

 17             I can understand the -- I can understand 

 18  some of the emotion behind it, but I don't think 

 19  that's something that I would say in quite that 

 20  way.

 21       Q.    It's fair to say that that's not fair 

 22  and accurate totally as regards to this case.

 23       A.    It's an opinion.  It's an opinion piece.

 24       Q.    Well, the "guns" part is pure hyperbole, 

 25  is it not? 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    I think that's a reference to law 

  3  enforcement or, you know, whatever else the writer 

  4  may have been trying to convey.

  5       Q.    You talked earlier about some of the 

  6  sites being juvenile in nature.  Do you remember 

  7  that conversation?

  8       A.    Today you mean? 

  9       Q.    Today.

 10       A.    Yes.

 11       Q.    It's a quote from your declaration.

 12       A.    OK, yes, my declaration too.

 13       Q.    And you said, as I understand it, they 

 14  are juvenile in nature, I guess the example you 

 15  gave, the language they use.

 16       A.    Yes. 

 17       Q.    Is that fair?

 18       A.    Well, the language they use, yeah, the 

 19  way they look. 

 20       Q.    The example that was read to you earlier 

 21  using foul language --

 22       A.    Yes, this here. 

 23       Q.    -- Exhibit Number 6, is an example of 

 24  that.

 25       A.    Uh-huh. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Is it fair to say though, are you 

  3  telling us that you yourself do not use that sort 

  4  of language in regards to the Internet or 

  5  communicating ideas?

  6       A.    I don't think so. 

  7       Q.    Never.  Never have.

  8       A.    I can't -- I don't think even twenty 

  9  years ago I would have used that kind of language.

 10       Q.    And specifically the kind of language 

 11  here is what word is it?

 12       A.    It's not so much the words.  It's 

 13  just -- just the tone, you know, all caps and 

 14  basically targeting people and labeling people.  

 15  It's not the kind of thing I do.

 16       Q.    The foul language, is that something you 

 17  would do?

 18       A.    Again, language is something I think is 

 19  open to interpretation.  This I consider to be foul 

 20  language.  Does that mean every time those 

 21  particular words are used it's foul?  We can have a 

 22  discussion about that.  I'm not sure. 

 23             You might be able to point to me using a 

 24  word in some other context, and I don't think it 

 25  would have the same connotation as it does here. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Is there any words there that you 

  3  consider to be foul in and of themselves that you 

  4  would not use when it comes to the Internet? 

  5             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to this.  I 

  6       don't see the relevancy as to this case.  If 

  7       you have something you want to show to him, 

  8       show it to him.

  9       A.    There are no words that I restrict 

 10  myself from using if that's what you're asking. 

 11       Q.    Do you own the domain name 2600.com?

 12       A.    Yes.

 13       Q.    Is that the only domain name you have 

 14  owned?

 15       A.    No.

 16       Q.    What other domain names have you owned?

 17       A.    There are a bunch.  There's various 

 18  other interpretations of that or iterations of 

 19  that -- 2600.Net, 2600.org.  And there are other -- 

 20  I wish I had a list in front of me.  I am trying to 

 21  think of everything that we have.  There are some 

 22  humorous sites that we have put up.  A recent one  

 23  concerning "Horizon."  We basically put up a site 

 24  called horizonreallysucks.com.  It's probably one 

 25  of the ones you're thinking of.  Just as kind of a 


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  2  forum for people to criticize a company.  I mean, 

  3  there are others.  Is there a particular one you're 

  4  interested in?

  5       Q.    Did you put up any in regards 

  6  specifically to this litigation?

  7       A.    For this litigation?  I honestly don't 

  8  think so. 

  9       Q.    You're sure about that. 

 10             MR. GARBUS:  I object.  He said he 

 11       honestly doesn't think so.

 12       A.    I'm honestly not sure.  I mean, if you 

 13  know of one, please tell me and I'll --

 14       Q.    Have you ever owned a domain name with 

 15  the name "morons" in it?

 16       A.    Ah, OK.  Now it's coming back to me.  We 

 17  had -- we have a domain name with a foul word in it 

 18  followed by the word "morons."

 19       Q.    Do you want to tell us for the record 

 20  what the domain name was?

 21       A.    Yes, it's fuckingmorons.com, and it was 

 22  someone's -- I mean, someone at 2600, I forget 

 23  exactly who.  It was really just -- I thought it 

 24  was funny.  I thought it was just a joke.  It would 

 25  be pointing to MPAA.  But that's -- I think it's 


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  2  actually been pointed at different sites, not just 

  3  MPAA.  It's been pointed -- it was pointed at us 

  4  for a while.  It's been pointed at -- the beauty of 

  5  the Net is you can point sites wherever you want to 

  6  point them.  It was just an example of humor. 

  7             So I don't -- I don't see that as 

  8  something necessarily immature, along that level.  

  9  Immature to a degree perhaps, but I don't think 

 10  anything other than just, you know, the kind of 

 11  joke you would see on late night TV or something 

 12  like that, cable. 

 13       Q.    Was there any other purpose for creating 

 14  that domain name?

 15       A.    We didn't publicize it very much.  Just 

 16  told a few friends I think.

 17       Q.    Do you know if you got any hits on it?  

 18       A.    No, we don't keep that kind of 

 19  information.  Actually, you would know, because I 

 20  think you have referral logs that would tell you if 

 21  people came in through there.

 22       Q.    Any other purpose though for creating 

 23  it?

 24       A.    Basically the real reason -- it was not 

 25  created with the MPAA in mind, I should point that 


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  2  out.  It was created because registrars -- this is 

  3  really where it goes back to, registrars.  There 

  4  used to be simply one in this country, Network 

  5  Solutions.  Late last year, or actually over the 

  6  summer last year, it was deregulated.  More 

  7  registrars came into existence.  And all of a 

  8  sudden the rules that NSI had lived by for many, 

  9  many years, which restricted all use of any 

 10  four-letter word, all of a sudden those rules no 

 11  longer existed. 

 12             For a period of time, I think about two 

 13  days actually, every single iteration of a site 

 14  with one of those words was going fast.  And it was 

 15  just -- this was well before any of this started to 

 16  happen.  We just thought it would be fun to 

 17  register some of those and either use them as we 

 18  see fit in the future or give them away to people 

 19  to do whatever they want.  They were going to go 

 20  anyway, so we figured we might as well get them and 

 21  play around with them.  That's an example of one 

 22  the -- I guess that's about as childish as we get.

 23       Q.    Was that telling the story or reporting 

 24  the story as you see your job?

 25       A.    Well, we didn't report that story.  


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  That's just something we did behind the scenes.

  3       Q.    You said that 2600 is a journalistic 

  4  adventure that reports and tells the story.  Is 

  5  that fair?

  6       A.    Yes.

  7       Q.    Is your using that domain name to, I 

  8  guess what you said, poke fun at the MPAA part of 

  9  telling the story?

 10       A.    That's not part are our journalistic --

 11       Q.    So 2600 --

 12       A.    -- duties.

 13       Q.    -- has other things to do other than 

 14  being journalists then.  I guess that's now what 

 15  you're telling us.  

 16             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 17       the question.  That's not what he's telling 

 18       you at all.

 19       A.    This is not something that is done as 

 20  2600.  This is something that is done as 

 21  individuals just goofing around.  It's just a joke.

 22       Q.    Who owns the domain name?

 23       A.    I do.

 24       Q.    Who is the owner?  Tell me the name of 

 25  the owner of the domain name.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Again, I would have to look at the 

  3  actual sites because there are a lot of -- a lot of 

  4  domain names I own.  I believe it's Emmanuel 

  5  Goldstein.  It could be slightly different, but 

  6  that's what I understand it to be.

  7       Q.    Do you own any other domain names with 

  8  four-letter words in it?

  9       A.    There are a few.  I don't remember 

 10  specifically which ones.  We just grabbed a bunch, 

 11  you know, just the fun of it.

 12       Q.    Why don't you tell us what else you own?

 13       A.    Like I said, if you show me a list I can 

 14  confirm it or deny it, but this is not something 

 15  that's paramount in my mind.  In fact, a lot of 

 16  these sites I've forgotten about ever since we 

 17  grabbed a few of them.

 18       Q.    And the only one you remember is this 

 19  one now.

 20       A.    Because you brought it up, yes.

 21       Q.    Are there any others you use as you sit 

 22  and recall in regards to this litigation? 

 23       A.    In regards to this litigation?  That's 

 24  the only one I can think of that points to MPAA or 

 25  ever did point to MPAA.  To be honest, I don't even 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  know if it's pointing there now.  It may have been 

  3  pointing there for a while and then pointing 

  4  somewhere else.  I don't even remember.  I've had 

  5  far more important things to worry about. 

  6       Q.    Who linked it to the MPAA site?

  7       A.    I don't recall.

  8       Q.    Did you do it?

  9       A.    I don't recall if I did or not.  

 10       Q.    Well, if you didn't do it, who else 

 11  could have done it? 

 12       A.    Anybody who was on our site and has 

 13  route access and is able to change the 

 14  configuration files that would point. 

 15       Q.    See, you told me you own the domain 

 16  name.

 17       A.    I own the domain name.

 18       Q.    So who else has authority to use your 

 19  domain name?

 20       A.    Anyone who has system administrative 

 21  privileges on my system, on 2600.com, is capable of 

 22  going into the files that designate where that site 

 23  points to and pointing it someplace else.  It's 

 24  very simple.

 25       Q.    Who else is that?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Our assistant administrator.  I believe 

  3  our webmaster has that access as well.  Our office 

  4  manager has that access.  It's a very simple thing.  

  5  It's nothing complex. 

  6       Q.    Anyone else?

  7       A.    Not that I know of. 

  8       Q.    As you sit here right now you don't know 

  9  who actually created the link.

 10       A.    I can't swear to who created the link.  

 11  I am not saying I didn't do it.  I don't remember.  

 12  This is not a major issue for me.  It's a simple 

 13  joke, parody.  I don't see its relevance at all. 

 14       Q.    As you sit here right now, there is no 

 15  other link that you or anyone else at 2600 you know 

 16  created that would fall into this similar 

 17  characterization of a link.

 18       A.    Could you rephrase that a little bit? 

 19             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the form of the 

 20       question. 

 21       Q.    I am just trying to make sure.  You 

 22  said, as I understand it, you don't remember right 

 23  now whether you did this or someone else on the 

 24  2600 staff did it.

 25       A.    Right.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    I just want to make sure, is there any 

  3  other domain name that 2600 or you own that you 

  4  utilized in a similar way to this one?

  5             MR. GARBUS:  Object to the word 

  6       "similar."  I am not sure what you mean.

  7       Q.    Do you understand what I mean by that?  

  8  In any way mentioning this litigation or impacted 

  9  by this litigation.

 10       A.    Specifically for this litigation, I 

 11  don't recall of any, no.

 12       Q.    It's fair to say the only reason you did 

 13  this and on this domain name was because of this 

 14  litigation.

 15       A.    As I said, the domain name was 

 16  registered well in advance of this litigation.  

 17  That was not the reason for registering the domain 

 18  name.

 19       Q.    Your use of tying it to the MPAA, isn't 

 20  it fair to say that was only because of this 

 21  litigation?

 22       A.    It was related, I am sure, yes, because 

 23  people felt a certain way about that. 

 24       Q.    I said "only" and you said "related."  

 25  So is there any other reason you did this other 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  than this litigation?

  3       A.    I'm sure there are other reasons to 

  4  describe the MPAA in certain ways if people think 

  5  about it enough and discuss it enough.  I don't 

  6  know.  I would imagine it's related to the ongoing 

  7  hostilities.  But again, you know, I can't crawl 

  8  back into my head and figure out exactly when this 

  9  was done, who did it, what the thinking was at the 

 10  time.  It's something that I have not thought about 

 11  at all, and this is the first I've even thought 

 12  about it in it must be months.  So I don't know who 

 13  posted it, when they posted it, what the exact 

 14  thinking was when it was posted or, rather, linked. 

 15       Q.    You said numerous times that the reason 

 16  you kept up the link is it's part of the story.

 17       A.    Which links are we talking about now? 

 18       Q.    The links to DeCSS.  Switching topics. 

 19             Is that fair?

 20       A.    Yes. 

 21       Q.    And that you view it as your job as a 

 22  journalist to basically report that story.

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I am going to object.  I 

 24       think the practice we have had is that if a 

 25       second lawyer comes in he is entirely 


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  2       entitled to go into new areas.  What you 

  3       seem to be doing now is going over areas 

  4       that Mr. Gold went over.  And that we have 

  5       agreed no one should do.

  6             MR. LITVACK:  I will not do. 

  7       Q.    Isn't it correct that you and 2600 asked 

  8  people to post DeCSS so that you could link to it?

  9       A.    We told people how they could support, 

 10  how they could show their support for this 

 11  information, for talking about DeCSS, reverse 

 12  engineering, encryption technology.  All the things 

 13  that were being restricted we explained how we saw 

 14  this as a danger and how people could show support 

 15  if they chose to.  We also apprised them of the 

 16  risks that went with that.

 17       Q.    And there are a lot of ways you 

 18  indicated to them they could show support; isn't 

 19  that right?

 20       A.    There are many ways, yes.

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

 22       This is exactly what Mr. Gold went over.

 23       Q.    Now I am asking you specifically, which 

 24  Mr. Gold did not ask.  Didn't you ask people to 

 25  post it so that you could link to it?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Yes, we had a form where people could 

  3  submit a site.  If they wanted their site added to 

  4  the list, all they had to was fill it out and then 

  5  send it to us.  But that was their choice.

  6             MR. GARBUS:  Object.  This has already 

  7       been gone over through with Mr. Gold. 

  8             MR. LITVACK:  Let's mark this next 

  9       document whatever number we're up to.

 10             (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 8, 3-page 

 11       document, 2600: The Hacker Quarterly, 

 12       entitled "Call to Action," marked for 

 13       identification, as of this date.) 

 14       Q.    Have you ever seen this?  Exhibit 8 

 15  appears to be a printout from your web site; is 

 16  that fair?

 17       A.    Yes.  This is one of our web pages.

 18       Q.    And you have seen this before.

 19       A.    Yes. 

 20       Q.    By the way, do you do anything to check 

 21  the veracity of what you post before you put it on? 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to that.  

 23       The witness testified to that yesterday at 

 24       great length.  I am going to object to going 

 25       over the same material again.


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  2       Q.    Let me ask you this.  Did you do 

  3  anything to check the veracity of this particular 

  4  page?

  5       A.    I take responsibility for all pages on 

  6  our site.  Absolutely. 

  7       Q.    I think there was some testimony earlier 

  8  you weren't sure whether you had written something 

  9  particular or not.  I don't know if you recall 

 10  whether you yourself had written this page.

 11       A.    These two paragraphs here?  Is that what 

 12  you're referring to? 

 13       Q.    Those two paragraphs I guess would be 

 14  it.  I am not sure if the summary and the news also 

 15  would fall within.

 16       A.    OK.  I believe I wrote these two 

 17  paragraphs.  They do sound like my style. 

 18       Q.    Is it your opinion that the "call to 

 19  action," and that's a quote from the exhibit, is 

 20  part of telling the story?

 21       A.    By having people hand out fliers, by 

 22  having people tell others about what's going on, 

 23  that's part of it.  It's part of getting the word 

 24  out, yes.

 25       Q.    And the word you're attempting to get 


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  2  out via this is what?

  3       A.    That this -- basically that DeCSS is 

  4  something that is an interesting story.  It has to 

  5  do with encryption and reverse engineering and 

  6  technological developments and education. 

  7             We outlined what we felt was wrong with 

  8  the case against us and told as many people as we 

  9  could, as I believe is our right. 

 10       Q.    And you see that as part of reporting 

 11  the story?

 12       A.    I see this as part of reporting the 

 13  story, yes, getting the word out.  It might not be 

 14  a traditional way that the mainstream media does 

 15  it, but that's how we do it. 

 16       Q.    In your declaration you made the comment 

 17  "While I don't practice or condone breaking into 

 18  computer systems, experience has shown us that such 

 19  acts are an inevitable product of curiosity 

 20  combined with new technology."

 21       A.    What item number? 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Which paragraph? 

 23             MR. LITVACK:  13.  Page 4. 

 24       A.    OK, I'm there. 

 25       Q.    Mr. Gold did ask you about this.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Yes. 

  3             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Gold asked about the 

  4       entire paragraph; is that right?

  5             MR. LITVACK:  Correct.  So I am not 

  6       going to repeat his question. 

  7       Q.    Isn't it fair to say that what the 2600 

  8  quarterly does do is condone breaking into computer 

  9  systems --

 10       A.    It does not.

 11       Q.    Let me finish.  -- and tell people how 

 12  to go about violating the law?

 13       A.    Absolutely not. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 15       Q.    Are there not articles, numerous 

 16  articles, in your magazine that specifically do 

 17  that?

 18       A.    There are articles submitted to us by 

 19  people that give us information on various 

 20  operating systems on how things work.  But it has 

 21  always been the editorial stance of our magazine 

 22  that breaking into computer systems is 

 23  irresponsible, it's wrong. 

 24             But what we do is we recognize that it 

 25  is also something that is happening and we want 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  people to act responsibly.

  3       Q.    Don't you tell people how to steal as 

  4  well in these magazines?

  5       A.    I don't think we have ever told people 

  6  how to steal. 

  7             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

  8       Unless you show the witness the quote.

  9       Q.    How about using telephones without 

 10  paying for them?

 11       A.    We described how telephones work.

 12       Q.    And you tell people how to use 

 13  telephones without paying for them.

 14       A.    We tell people how the system works and 

 15  how -- if there are security weaknesses in it, we 

 16  describe the security weaknesses.  That's the 

 17  nature of information.  We describe how it works.  

 18  We do not say "go out and do this and break the 

 19  law."  We have never said that, and you can trace 

 20  that back to our first issue in 1984. 

 21       Q.    Do you tell people how to create false 

 22  legal documents as well?

 23       A.    False legal documents? 

 24       Q.    Yes.

 25       A.    Again, we tell people how systems work. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    You don't recall specifically telling 

  3  people how to create false --

  4       A.    I don't recall ever telling someone how 

  5  to do that.  There might be an article that talks 

  6  about how a particular system works.

  7       Q.    How about stealing cellular phone 

  8  systems?  Do you tell people how to do that in the 

  9  magazine as well?

 10       A.    Stealing systems? 

 11       Q.    Phone time, on cellular phone times.

 12       A.    Do we tell people how to steal cellular 

 13  phone time? 

 14       Q.    Yes.

 15       A.    Again, we describe how systems work and 

 16  we will describe how the cellular phone system 

 17  works.  Now, if somebody uses that information in a 

 18  good way, that's not our concern.  If somebody uses 

 19  that information in a bad way, that's not our 

 20  concern.  We provide the information.  That's what 

 21  we do.

 22       Q.    Don't you teach people how to make card 

 23  phones in this magazine, and the only purpose of 

 24  those is to steal phone time?

 25       A.    No.  


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Are you sure?

  3       A.    Well --

  4       Q.    Remember, you're under oath here.  So 

  5  we're going to go through these articles?

  6             MR. GARBUS:  If you have an article to 

  7       show him, show him the article.

  8             MR. LITVACK:  He just said no.

  9       A.    I said no, and I'll continue to say 

 10  no, because interpretation of the intent of 

 11  knowledge is -- I don't think any of us have the 

 12  ability or even the right to say that.

 13       Q.    Sir, didn't you specifically print an 

 14  article for example on how to create a false ID  

 15  about your age?

 16       A.    Someone may have written an article 

 17  about how that is done. 

 18       Q.    Doesn't it specifically say in there the 

 19  purpose of it is so you can drink when you're 

 20  underage?

 21       A.    That might be that person's 

 22  interpretation.  That is not our interpretation. 

 23       Q.    Sir, you printed it in your magazine.  

 24  You said you're responsible for every word in here.

 25       A.    I'm responsible for what we write as 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  editorials, as replies to letters, as editorial 

  3  stances in the magazine.

  4       Q.    Sir, do you believe that --

  5       A.    We do not agree with every article that 

  6  is submitted to our magazine, no.  If we did, we 

  7  would cease being what we are.

  8       Q.    What are you?

  9       A.    We're a journal of various bits of 

 10  information that are sent to us from around the 

 11  world describing how systems work.

 12       Q.    And part of that includes creating false 

 13  IDs so underage people can drink. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Objection.

 15       A.    I would like to see the article you're 

 16  referring to so I can answer it intelligently. 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  Would you please lower 

 18       your voice, Mr. Litvack.  Stop yelling at 

 19       the witness

 20       Q.    Let me read you an article entitled 

 21  "Spoofing Cellular Service."  This is from autumn 

 22  1996. 

 23             First, why don't you tell me, what is 

 24  spoofing cellular service?

 25       A.    In the context of that article I believe 


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  2  it's creating a false phone number or a phone 

  3  number on a different line or -- it can be 

  4  interpreted in many ways.  It can be an extension 

  5  phone on a cellular system.  It can be a fake 

  6  number.  I would have to see the article to know 

  7  exactly how it's meant in that particular case.

  8       Q.    You don't remember this article.

  9       A.    I would have to look at it to remember.  

 10  I can't remember every word that's written in the 

 11  magazine.  That's an old issue taken from several 

 12  years ago.

 13       Q.    Until you read it you can't tell me if 

 14  the only purpose of this article is to tell 

 15  somebody how to get cellular service without paying 

 16  for it. 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

 18       He's already said unless he reads it he 

 19       can't tell you what is in there.  You have 

 20       asked him that.

 21             MR. LITVACK:  You will stipulate to 

 22       that?

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will stipulate that he 

 24       has to read the article before he can answer 

 25       questions about it. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    So you can't answer that without reading 

  3  it.

  4       A.    I can't answer accurately without 

  5  looking at --

  6       Q.    Fine, here, read the article.  Take your 

  7  time (handing).

  8       A.    OK. 

  9       Q.    For the record, as your counsel reads 

 10  it, do you know when these were given to the 

 11  plaintiffs in this case, these magazines?

 12       A.    Do I know when they were given? 

 13       Q.    Yes.

 14       A.    I believe today. 

 15       Q.    Doesn't that article tell you how to get 

 16  cellular phone service without paying for it?

 17       A.    It tells you many things.  Yes, it 

 18  describes how that can be done.  It also describes 

 19  social engineering.  It describes security 

 20  weaknesses. 

 21             I have no doubt after that article 

 22  appeared that those security holes were fixed.  I 

 23  have gotten many times at conferences executives of 

 24  companies who walked up to me and said that we 

 25  provide a valuable service for them.  And I have 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  also been criticized in the hacker community for 

  3  doing just that, for giving away the secrets.  So 

  4  it's a two-edged sword. 

  5       Q.    So it's your testimony here you were 

  6  attempting to do a public service for the cellular 

  7  phone systems?

  8       A.    No, my testimony --

  9             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

 10       That was not the testimony.

 11       A.    My testimony is that we print 

 12  information.  People use that information in 

 13  different ways.  It's very simple.

 14       Q.    Are there legal ways for people to use 

 15  that system to get phone service without paying for 

 16  it?

 17       A.    I wouldn't know. 

 18       Q.    Let me show you the next article, "Tips 

 19  on Generating Fake ID." 

 20             "So you want to get drunk this weekend 

 21  or buy some cigarettes?  It is sometimes easier to 

 22  buy marijuana and take advantage of the black 

 23  market brought on by the war on drugs or follow on 

 24  and learn how to kill your brain cells with 

 25  alcohol."


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             Was that done as part of a public 

  3  service message?

  4       A.    That was an article somebody submitted.  

  5  As I said, I don't agree with every view expressed.  

  6  It can be seen as parody.  It can be seen as 

  7  nonsensical humor.  But it's also seen as educating 

  8  people as to how something is done.

  9       Q.    Parody on how to make a false ID?

 10       A.    No, parody on the opening paragraph that 

 11  you just read, as if that's the only thing that a 

 12  fake ID is good for, going out and getting drunk.  

 13  I mean, who knows how you would interpret that?

 14       Q.    Sir, let me show you an article from 

 15  volume 15, number 2.  Maybe you can read the read 

 16  better than I can.

 17       A.    It's on the bottom of the page.  Well, 

 18  the next page definitely.

 19       Q.    Maybe you can just tell me what it's 

 20  from.  Oh, summer of '98 on the bottom there. 

 21             That tells you how to make a false ID.  

 22  Is that fair? 

 23             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  The 

 24       article tells you what it tells you.  

 25       Whether it's fair or not is irrelevant.  The 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       articles says what it says.

  3       Q.    Mr. Garbus is absolutely right with his 

  4  objection.  Can you read to me the title?

  5       A.    "Tips on Generating Fake ID." 

  6       Q.    Can you read to me all of the commentary 

  7  or editorial comment that 2600 added on this?

  8       A.    We don't necessarily add editorial 

  9  comments into other people's articles.  People 

 10  submit articles to us.  We print the articles and 

 11  people learn from the articles.  They either learn 

 12  how to secure their systems or they learn how the 

 13  systems can be abused.  They can do good things, 

 14  they can do bad things.  We exist to provide 

 15  information. 

 16       Q.    What system is it you're teaching people 

 17  how to hack in this article?

 18       A.    I didn't say we were teaching people to 

 19  hack.

 20             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to it.  

 21       That wasn't what he said.

 22             MR. LITVACK:  I don't have to just 

 23       adopt his answer, Mr. Garbus.

 24             MR. GARBUS:  Of course you don't have 

 25       to adopt his answer.  But you can't restate 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       what he said in the wrong way.

  3             MR. LITVACK:  I get to ask the 

  4       questions, OK?

  5       Q.    Are you attempting to teach somebody how 

  6  to break into a system by that article?

  7       A.    I have no interest in people getting 

  8  fake ID.  It's a method that is used.  It's 

  9  educational.  It's a report on holes that exist in 

 10  various systems.  That's as simple as I can make 

 11  it. 

 12       Q.    Who made the decision to print that 

 13  article in that magazine?

 14       A.    That would be me.  As the editor. 

 15       Q.    In the end here there's a thing that 

 16  says "how to spot fake ID and not be fooled," and 

 17  it tells me what to say when they are handing over 

 18  the fake ID.  And the purpose of that is what?

 19       A.    Again, that's method, that's how things 

 20  work.  This is information that would exist even if 

 21  it was not in our magazine, except it would be less 

 22  well-known and less people would understand it. 

 23       Q.    So you're trying to explain to more 

 24  people how one could create a false ID if they want 

 25  to?


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    We try not to impose our moral judgments 

  3  on information.

  4       Q.    You also then tell people how to I guess 

  5  break into specific companies' computer programs in 

  6  your magazine?

  7       A.    I need a specific reference.

  8       Q.    Have you ever done that?

  9       A.    There are all kinds of articles in the 

 10  magazines about all kinds of computer systems.

 11       Q.    Are you really going to sit here and 

 12  tell me --

 13             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to the 

 14       form of the question as to what he is really 

 15       going to sit here and tell you.  I object to 

 16       the form of the question. 

 17       Q.    Is it your sworn testimony right now 

 18  that you do not ever remember publishing an article 

 19  telling people how to break into a specific 

 20  company's computer program?

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I'll object.

 22       A.    We print articles about computer systems 

 23  of specific companies and people can learn all 

 24  kinds of things from that.

 25             MR. GARBUS:  If you want to show him 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       an article, show him an article.

  3             MR. LITVACK:  I don't need to show him 

  4       an article.  He knows that they publish them 

  5       on specific companies.  Every one of these 

  6       magazines has articles on specific companies 

  7       pretty much.

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I object to that.

  9       Q.    Isn't that fair?

 10       A.    And those specific companies read the 

 11  articles.

 12       Q.    So I don't need to show you any 

 13  articles.

 14             MR. GARBUS:  Mr. Litvack, this is a 

 15       deposition.  This is not an argument.  

 16             MR. LITVACK:  You objected, said you 

 17       need to show him the magazine.  He knows he 

 18       doesn't need the magazine.  He knows it's 

 19       the regular magazine to print these 

 20       articles. 

 21             If you have an objection to form, make 

 22       it.

 23             MR GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 24       the question.

 25             MR. LITVACK:  Good.  There's not even 


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  2       a question pending.

  3       A.    If you're looking at a specific article, 

  4  that's the only reason I was curious which article 

  5  it was. 

  6       Q.    Routinely, it's things you publish; 

  7  isn't that fair?

  8       A.    That's the nature of our magazine, is 

  9  how systems work. 

 10       Q.    Fine.  "Fun at COSCO," do you recall 

 11  this article?

 12       A.    I am thinking.  Yes. 

 13       Q.    Summer of '99?

 14       A.    I don't recall specifically what is in 

 15  it, but I recall the article.  Yes. 

 16       Q.    I will show you the article.

 17       A.    Thank you.

 18             OK.

 19       Q.    What is the "fun at COSCO"?

 20       A.    It's -- you asked me to analyze the 

 21  title?  It's basically a statement.  People -- the 

 22  title first of all was part of the article.  Our 

 23  writers entitle their own articles.  So it is rare 

 24  that we come up with our own titles. 

 25             Again, it's basically a way of 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  describing how these systems work.  From this 

  3  person's point of view, they consider that fun. 

  4       Q.    What's fun?  Shopping?

  5       A.    Learning how the systems work, seeing 

  6  how the phone systems at that particular store 

  7  work.  And I am trying to see what else is in here.

  8       Q.    Isn't it using the computer system when 

  9  you're not authorized to use it?

 10       A.    Yeah, using is different than reading. 

 11       Q.    Is it?

 12       A.    We have told people -- if you read our 

 13  letters and you see our replies to people that are 

 14  obviously intent on committing criminal acts, you 

 15  will see that we chastise them and tell them not to 

 16  do it.

 17       Q.    You don't do it on --

 18       A.    Because those are articles.  We don't 

 19  comment on articles.

 20       Q.    This article even tells you what to say 

 21  when you get caught. 

 22       A.    Uh-huh.

 23       Q.    Did you comment on it, like say, Gee, 

 24  don't do this?

 25       A.    Well, if COSCO reads that article and 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  someone says that, I think they will know that they 

  3  read the article too and they'll be prepared for 

  4  it.

  5       Q.    So you sent COSCO a copy?

  6       A.    We don't send anybody a copy unless they 

  7  ask for a copy.  But usually if your company's name 

  8  is in there, you get a copy pretty fast.  They 

  9  might even sell us at COSCO.

 10       Q.    In this article when it described how to 

 11  use COSCO's system wrongfully and what to say when 

 12  caught, did you do anything to insure that people 

 13  didn't use the advice that you were handing out?

 14       A.    Like I said, we did not --

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 

 16       of the question.

 17       A.    We do not impose our moral values on our 

 18  articles.  The articles are what they are.

 19       Q.    Even if they encourage illegal acts? 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 

 21       of the question.

 22       A.    I don't believe the article only exists 

 23  to encourage illegal acts.  I think it is an 

 24  informational article.

 25       Q.    What is a diverter, a telephone 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  diverter?

  3       A.    A diverter is actually a very old piece 

  4  of phone -- phone equipment that I believe doctors 

  5  and plumbers and other such people use after hours.  

  6  I might be wrong on this, but I am pretty sure it 

  7  is used.  So that when somebody calls the office 

  8  and nobody is there, the call gets forwarded to the 

  9  person's home.  It's kind of a mechanical version 

 10  of call forwarding.  It is rare to find these days 

 11  because call forwarding is so prevalent in the 

 12  phone companies.

 13       Q.    Didn't you print an article on how to 

 14  use a phone diverter so that the person utilizing 

 15  it would not have to pay for the phone calls they 

 16  made and that somebody else would be charged for 

 17  it?

 18       A.    Now, that's a very good point actually 

 19  because -- I think you're going back to an old 

 20  issue.  Phone diverters have become notoriously 

 21  insecure.  The reason for that is that when you 

 22  call the person's office and the call gets 

 23  forwarded to the person's home, that's done by 

 24  picking up the second phone line and making a phone 

 25  call and basically conferencing you in. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             Now, what happens is, and this was 

  3  discovered by hackers, when the person on the 

  4  remote end hangs up, the other phone drops to a 

  5  dial tone, meaning that call diverters are not the 

  6  way to go. 

  7             Now, I had the option of buying a call 

  8  diverter, and it was because of the information 

  9  that I had from articles like this that I realized 

 10  I would be crazy to do that, that people could make 

 11  phone calls off of my line. 

 12             And I think that's one of the reasons 

 13  why you don't see very many call diverters these 

 14  days, because people are aware of the risks.  If we 

 15  had not printed articles like this, I am sure there 

 16  would be a lot more people being ripped off these 

 17  days who weren't aware of the risks.

 18       Q.    "Call diverters are a wonderful tool for 

 19  you to add to your freaking arsenal."  Is that 

 20  telling people be careful about using them?

 21       A.    Are those our words?

 22             MR. GARBUS:  Let me just make an 

 23       objection. 

 24             MR. LITVACK:  You can have an 

 25       objection to form of the question. 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GARBUS:  No, no, no.  Just so we 

  3       can save a little time.

  4             If James Bond describes 17 different 

  5       ways to kill somebody, do you think that 

  6       James Bond's publisher or author is liable 

  7       if it's a killing that ultimately occurs 

  8       that way?

  9             MR. LITVACK:  Let me ask you this, 

 10       Mr. Garbus.  Do you really in good faith 

 11       believe that was an objection to form, 

 12       asking me a hypothetical? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead. 

 14       Q.    "Call diverters are a wonderful tool for 

 15  you to add to your freaking arsenal."

 16       A.    I believe I answered that by asking you 

 17  if that's our writing or if that's the author's 

 18  writing.

 19       Q.    I am reading from 2600.

 20       A.    Right.  But is that an article that was 

 21  submitted to us or is that our writing from the 

 22  magazine? 

 23       Q.    Do you believe that is a way of warning 

 24  people about the danger of call diverters?

 25       A.    If you read the article and you learn 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  what the article says, yes.  Absolutely.  

  3       Q.    So that's the way you warn people, by 

  4  language such as that.

  5             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form.

  6       A.    That's the way we get the information.

  7       Q.    I'll quote again.  "After you've located 

  8  a diverter, don't abuse it or the business is sure 

  9  to pull the plug, leaving you to start all over 

 10  again."

 11       A.    Again, that's the person who submitted 


 12  the article to us and that is the way they decided 

 13  to write the article.  We don't put our moral 

 14  values over people's articles.

 15       Q.    Article entitled "Hacking the 3-Hole Pay 

 16  Phone."  Do you remember that article from --

 17       A.    That's our new issue.

 18       Q.    Newest issue.  So this one should -- in 

 19  fact, this should be after the lawsuit was filed.

 20       A.    Yes. 

 21       Q.    Now, hacking the 3-hole pay phone, 

 22  explaining to you how to put slugs into a phone 

 23  system, to a pay phone. 

 24       A.    Yes.

 25       Q.    And the purpose of that was to help the 


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  2  phone company stop it?

  3       A.    You've picked a really dandy of an 

  4  example there.  That actually is an article about 

  5  phones that haven't existed in maybe the last 30 

  6  years.  That's historical perspective there. 

  7             I think that goes to show that we do not 

  8  print articles simply to show people how to defraud 

  9  things.  That is an example of how things worked in 

 10  the past, how thing were abused in the past.  I 

 11  found it fascinating. 

 12       Q.    Do you believe there are no 3-hole pay 

 13  phones left in America?

 14       A.    I would sure like to find one.  I'd love 

 15  to see one.

 16       Q.    Is it your testimony that there are no 

 17  3-hole pay phones left in America?

 18       A.    Except on movie sets perhaps. 

 19       Q.    In fact, you guys specialize in phones 

 20  because you put them on the back of every issue, 

 21  isn't that right? 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the form of 

 23       the question.  What do you mean by 

 24       specialize in phones?

 25       A.    We put pictures of foreign pay phones 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  on the back of our magazine.  I am sure there are 

  3  bad ways that information can be used.

  4       Q.    Do you put domestic as well or only 

  5  foreign?

  6       A.    Only foreign.  We see enough domestic 

  7  ones. 

  8       Q.    I'm looking at an article from spring of 

  9  last year, '99.  "Hacking a Sony Play Station." 

 10             Do you remember that article?

 11       A.    I remember the article.  I've never had 

 12  a Sony Play Station myself, so I don't really 

 13  remember what it entails.

 14       Q.    "If you're one of the" -- I'm reading 

 15  now.  Well, I'm going to give it to you.  So that 

 16  way you can see I'm accurate.  Can you read the 

 17  first paragraph out loud?

 18       A.    "If you're one of the millions of Play 

 19  Station, in parentheses, PSX, owners out there, 

 20  good news.  You can, quote unquote, hack your PSX 

 21  with the addition of a, quote, Mod, M-o-d, or, 

 22  quote, Pic, P-i-c, chip enabling you to play backed 

 23  up, ahem, in parentheses, PSX games and more 

 24  importantly import games and at a fraction of the 

 25  cost." 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Did you read this before you put in the 

  3  magazine?

  4       A.    Yes. 

  5       Q.    Did you wonder, did you ask the author 

  6  what you meant by "ahem"?

  7       A.    We don't communicate with the authors 

  8  and analyze every word that they say and ask them 

  9  to rewrite things.  The articles speak for 

 10  themselves.  We print the information that the 

 11  people send us.  There's all kinds of things that 

 12  can be gained from an article about hacking a Sony 

 13  Play Station.  You can learn the vulnerabilities in 

 14  the system.  We can see what people are doing.

 15             We don't usually print articles on 

 16  something like this.  This is widespread without us 

 17  doing this.  We have been criticized for putting 

 18  this in our magazine because it's really got 

 19  nothing to do with real computers.  These are 

 20  games.

 21       Q.    Did you have an understanding as to what 

 22  they meant by "ahem"?

 23       A.    Yes, I imagine it was a bit of sarcasm 

 24  on their part.  But I think that's also important 

 25  to the article so you know the tone of the person 


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  2  writing it and what it is that they are really up 

  3  to.

  4       Q.    Sarcasm on what issue?

  5       A.    On the issue of defining games that  

  6  they had copied as backed up games instead of games 

  7  that they copied from friends. 

  8       Q.    Would that be a pirate copy?

  9       A.    It might be considered that.  I am not 

 10  really familiar with the Play Station world, if 

 11  they even consider it that serious a thing.  But 

 12  this is information -- this has been out years 

 13  before we even touched it.  I think it's important 

 14  for people to see what's being written about it. 

 15       Q.    I am going to show you an article from 

 16  fall of 1998.  Can you read for me the title of the 

 17  article? 

 18       A.    "Screwing with Movie Phone."  

 19       Q.    What does that article tell you how to 

 20  do?

 21       A.    This article actually was interesting 

 22  because it -- I'm just remembering what it had to 

 23  say here.  This talked about how particular 

 24  transactions over the telephone could easily be 

 25  used in a fraudulent manner, in other words, this 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  involved people behind the counter, like fraud 

  3  within Movie Phone.  Actually, within the theater, 

  4  where from --

  5       Q.    Doesn't it tell you you can use Movie 

  6  Phone if you're under age to buy an R-rated movie 

  7  ticket and get in?

  8       A.    It tells of how there's no security 

  9  whatsoever if you buy a ticket in this way and how 

 10  people have been turning a blind eye to this for 

 11  years. 

 12       Q.    Doesn't it also tell you how you can 

 13  order over Movie Phone, go see the move and then 

 14  get your money back as if you never saw the movie.

 15       A.    And this has been going on for years.

 16       Q.    But it tells you how to do that.

 17       A.    I would bet that this stopped happening 

 18  shortly after we printed the article.

 19       Q.    Did you have an opinion as to whether 

 20  that was a fair use of your movie ticket or not?

 21       A.    I don't think my opinion is relevant to 

 22  the articles that get printed.  The articles do not 

 23  reflect my opinion.

 24       Q.    Do you read them before they --

 25       A.    I read them, but the articles I print do 


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  2  not all agree with what I have to say.  The hacker 

  3  community is not one big monolithic collective 

  4  mind.  We try to print what information is out 

  5  there that's different, that educates people the 

  6  most on how things work and how things are 

  7  vulnerable.  And that's what I think we did with 

  8  this article and with the other ones.

  9       Q.    Let me show you the next article, ask 

 10  you if you remember this one.  Can you read this?

 11       A.    "Cable Modem Security."

 12       Q.    Can you just read the opening sentence?

 13       A.    "Cable modems are becoming increasingly 

 14  popular among the Internet connected for a variety 

 15  of reasons, not the least of which is the 

 16  availability of a cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth 

 17  connection on request." 

 18       Q.    Fine, that's it.  Did you ever do 

 19  anything, put anything in your magazine, to 

 20  indicate you disagree with that statement?

 21       A.    Like I said, we don't comment on 

 22  articles, we put our editorial comments on the 

 23  articles.

 24       Q.    Did you believe that statement was 

 25  wrong?


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  2       A.    That cable modems are becoming 

  3  popular --

  4       Q.    Correct.

  5       A.    High bandwidth?  Cable modems are 

  6  obviously becoming popular, yes.  I won't disagree 

  7  with that.

  8       Q.    Not the least of which is the 

  9  availability of a cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth 

 10  connection on request.

 11       A.    Uh-huh.  And that article is also 

 12  several years old.  And we have not really advanced 

 13  very far beyond cable modems in all that time. 

 14       Q.    Do you know of modems, the speed of 

 15  cable modems?

 16       A.    I not familiar with the actual speed.  

 17  It varies.  It depends how many people are in your 

 18  loop.

 19       Q.    Do you think they're quicker than 56?

 20       A.    They're quicker than 56, but how much 

 21  quicker depends on how many other people share your 

 22  line. 

 23       Q.    Did you do anything to check the 

 24  veracity of that particular statement before you 

 25  published it?


                                                             351
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Whether or not cable modems are fast? 

  3       Q.    Are becoming increasingly popular among 

  4  the Internet connected for a variety of reasons, 

  5  not the least of which is the availability of a 

  6  cheap, high-speed, high bandwidth connection on 

  7  request.

  8       A.    I don't understand why that would be a 

  9  statement that would need to be verified.  It's 

 10  pretty common knowledge that cable modems are 

 11  popular because they offer, quote unquote, high 

 12  speed. 

 13             But I think it's also important that 

 14  that's what was said years ago, and we haven't 

 15  advanced beyond that, not to any significant 

 16  degree.  In fact, cable modems are still faster 

 17  than DSL in most cases.

 18       Q.    My only question was did you do anything 

 19  to check the veracity of that particular statement.

 20       A.    The answer is no.  

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I will object.  He has 

 22       already answered the question.

 23             MR. LITVACK:  Why don't we take a 

 24       break. 

 25             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 4:06 


                                                             352
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       p.m. and this completes videotape number 4 

  3       of the videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 

  4       Goldstein. 

  5             (A recess was taken.)

  6             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time 4:19 p.m. 

  7       and this begins tape number 5 of the 

  8       videotape deposition of Mr. Emmanuel 

  9       Goldstein. 

 10  BY MR. GOLD: 

 11       Q.    I show you Volume Fourteen, Number Two, 

 12  which is the summer of 1997. 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Let's mark it as an 

 14       exhibit so we can keep better charge of it.  

 15       Why don't you just identify the books you 

 16       have had so we can mark them as exhibits.  

 17       In other words, I previously referred to 

 18       so-and-so. 

 19             MR. LITVACK:  OK, we'll do it at end.  

 20       This is going to be a very quick question.

 21             (Discussion off the record.)

 22             THE WITNESS:  What page do you want me 

 23       to look at?

 24       Q.    I believe you testified earlier that all 

 25  of the phones were not in the United States.


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    No.

  3       Q.    Does that refresh your recollection that 

  4  there are phones as well in the United States?

  5       A.    Yes, you did find one phone I forgot 

  6  about.  Actually, if you look, there is no real 

  7  phone in the phone booth.  It has just got paper 

  8  cups and things.  But yes, something from Florida.  

  9  From Disney World, I think.  Sorry, I stand 

 10  corrected.

 11       Q.    It says from Panama City.  I assume --

 12       A.    Which I think is in Florida, right?

 13       Q.    Right.  Disney World I believe is in 

 14  Orlando.

 15       A.    Never actually been there. 

 16       Q.    Leaving the 2600 magazines aside -- 

 17  although there's one more article I wanted to ask 

 18  you about.  Do you know what a DOS is?

 19       A.    DOS as denial of service or a DOS 

 20  operating system?

 21       Q.    As in denial of service.

 22       A.    Denial of service, yes.  There's been a 

 23  lot of publicity about that lately. 

 24       Q.    Have you written articles?  Have there 

 25  been articles in here on how to do DOS?


                                                             354
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    There have been articles about how such 

  3  an attack would be structured, yes.

  4       Q.    Have you ever participated in such an 

  5  act?

  6       A.    No.  

  7       Q.    Do you know anyone who has?

  8       A.    No, I don't. 

  9       Q.    Is the reason you put an article in here 

 10  on how to do a DOS attack to try to help people 

 11  stop DOS attacks? 

 12       A.    Absolutely. 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  Objection. 

 14             MR. LITVACK:  Your objection is? 

 15             MR. GARBUS:  You're testifying.  You 

 16       should be asking him questions.  Go ahead.

 17             MR. LITVACK:  I thought I had the 

 18       right to lead him, but OK.

 19       A.    It absolutely can help somebody to have 

 20  the denial of service laid out in front of you so 

 21  you know exactly what is involved and you know how 

 22  it's comprised, what the weaknesses are that would 

 23  allow something like that to happen.

 24             We have no interest in bringing the Net 

 25  down to a crawl, but it's something that I think 


                                                             355
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  people should be aware of, absolutely.  There's a 

  3  lot of ignorance floating around out there now.  

  4  That's because not enough information is out there. 

  5       Q.    The term "hacker" has been used.  You 

  6  used that term.

  7       A.    Right.

  8       Q.    It means something to you.

  9       A.    Uh-huh.

 10       Q.    In fact, you've written about what the 

 11  term means.

 12       A.    Uh-huh.

 13       Q.    That's a yes.

 14       A.    Yes. 

 15       Q.    If you say "uh-huh," it really makes his 

 16  very hard job impossible. 

 17             And you have used the term "cracker."

 18       A.    I have addressed the term "cracker."  I 

 19  don't use that term myself.  It's a misuse of what 

 20  I believe that term is. 

 21       Q.    Can you explain the difference?

 22       A.    Well, I don't see cracker as a valid 

 23  definition at all.  I think that's simply a way of 

 24  defining hacking in a bad way without explaining 

 25  why it's bad.  So basically you have someone 


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  1                     Goldstein 

  2  defined as a cracker, you don't need to know any 

  3  more about them.  You just know that they're bad.  

  4  But you don't know what it is they did. 

  5             I prefer to think of it as you have 

  6  hacking and then you have criminal activity which 

  7  can be defined by the crime.  So I don't think 

  8  there's any need for another word.  But again, 

  9  that's my opinion.  A lot of people don't share it. 

 10       Q.    There was talk earlier about, I believe 

 11  about Jon Johansen and you have written about Jon 

 12  Johansen, correct?

 13       A.    On the web site I believe we have 

 14  written about Jon Johansen. 

 15       Q.    Have you ever spoken to Jon Johansen?

 16       A.    I have never in person, no.  

 17       Q.    Have you talked to him about this case?

 18       A.    There may have been like -- I might have 

 19  seen him in IRC once or someone who claimed to be 

 20  him.  Nothing in detail. 

 21       Q.    Have you E-mailed him?

 22       A.    I think we might have exchanged one or 

 23  two E-mails just to say hello. 

 24       Q.    You just wrote back two E-mails, hello, 

 25  hello? 


                                                             357
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       A.    Well, no.  This is simply -- I am not 

  3  sure how the conversation would gotten started, if 

  4  it was even much of a conversation.  After all, he 

  5  is from Norway.  And I am not sure how good his 

  6  English is. 

  7             I think at one point there might have 

  8  been a mailing list that he and I were both on, and 

  9  I might have seen his name pop up and said hello to 

 10  him, or something like that.  Since we were both in 

 11  the news, we might have just passed pleasantries.  

 12  But there was no discussion of any real details.  I 

 13  don't really know that many of his details.  All I 

 14  know is what happened to him.  What was in the 

 15  newspapers, I haven't talked at length with him or 

 16  really anyone about that.

 17       Q.    Is it fair to say that you talked to 

 18  him, you had this E-mail exchange after November 

 19  1999?

 20       A.    It was after November, yes.

 21       Q.    Was it after January?

 22       A.    It was after the action against us.  It 

 23  was either in January, late January or shortly 

 24  thereafter.  I think it was around the time of the 

 25  Linux Expo actually.  That might have been it.


                                                             358
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       Q.    Did he tell you anything about Linux? 

  3       A.    Did he tell me anything about Linux? 

  4       Q.    Yes. 

  5       A.    No.

  6       Q.    Do you or does 2600 know who created 

  7  DeCSS?

  8       A.    As far as I know, that is something that 

  9  has never been definitively said one way or 

 10  another.  I didn't ask him if he was the person 

 11  behind it.

 12       Q.    Do you or 2600 know or have an opinion 

 13  as to who created DeCSS?

 14       A.    No.  I really have no knowledge about 

 15  that at all. 

 16       Q.    You said I think you used Napster once.

 17       A.    Once or maybe twice.

 18       Q.    Do you know what song you downloaded?

 19       A.    Most recently I remember it was an 

 20  article in Time magazine about some band that 

 21  everybody was going crazy over, and I wanted to 

 22  hear what they sounded like.  So I found one of 

 23  their songs and listened to it and that was it.  

 24  Just to see what they sounded like. 

 25             I forget the name of the band.  It was 


                                                             359
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  some big article about their unique sound, the 

  3  unique sound of this band, and that's the only time 

  4  I remember. 

  5             I remember I looked at the program to 

  6  see how the program worked, and that was probably 

  7  the first time I used it.  But I don't think I 

  8  actually listened to a song then.  I looked at 

  9  lists.  I remember looking at lists, but I don't 

 10  think I actually listened to a song.

 11       Q.    To download though you stored a copy of 

 12  it on your hard drive. 

 13       A.    Yes, an MP3 had to be downloaded. 

 14       Q.    When you say downloaded, is it fair to 

 15  say you stored a copy to your hard drive?

 16       A.    For that, yes, it would be fair to say.

 17       Q.    I don't know another way to do it.  

 18  Maybe you do.  That's what I'm asking.

 19       A.    Well, there's streaming.  Streaming is 

 20  live playing over the bandwidth you have.  And then 

 21  I don't -- my understanding of Napster is that it 

 22  copies it over to your system and then you listen 

 23  to it from your system.  That's my understanding.  

 24  I haven't really looked into it that deeply.

 25       Q.    That's my understanding.  I am just 


                                                             360
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  trying to see if that's how you did it. 

  3       A.    Right. 

  4       Q.    Do you know where the hard drive that 

  5  you -- is it still on your hard disk?

  6       A.    No, I don't think so.  I didn't like the 

  7  song.  In fact, I only listened to a couple of 

  8  seconds of it. 

  9       Q.    Did you pay for that copy?

 10       A.    There is no way to pay for an MP3 

 11  downloaded in that manner.

 12       Q.    Did you ever ask the copyright owner 

 13  whether -- 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the form 

 15       of the question.  I don't see what it has to 

 16       do with this lawsuit. 

 17             MR. LITVACK:  Let me finish my 

 18       question.  I don't mean to cut off your 

 19       objection.  Just I thought it should be at 

 20       the end of the question. 

 21             MR. GARBUS:  I'm sorry, I thought you 

 22       had finished.  Go ahead. 

 23       Q.    Did you ever seek the authorization from 

 24  the copyright owner to make that copy? 

 25             THE WITNESS:  Are you going to object 


                                                             361
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       now or do I answer? 

  3       Q.    That was the end.

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.  

  5       Answer it.

  6       A.    No.  I did not. 

  7       Q.    The way your web site operates, I take 

  8  it that unless you are enjoined, the linking, the 

  9  hyperlinks, the DeCSS, will just be up there as 

 10  long as your web site is up; is that fair?

 11       A.    Yes, that's a fair statement. 

 12       Q.    Was it your intention that if your 

 13  motion to lift the injunction against you and your 

 14  web site was granted that you would post DeCSS? 

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I will object to the 

 16       question.  Speculative. 

 17       A.    My understanding of legal issues, I 

 18  would assume that it would be back on our site if 

 19  we were allowed to put it on our site, yes.

 20       Q.    That would be your intention.  

 21       A.    Yes.  

 22       Q.    In your declaration, you criticize the 

 23  MPAA for sending cease and desist letters.  

 24  Paragraph 22. 

 25             "The letters ... are misleading and 


                                                             362
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  intimidating, since they suggest that the recipient 

  3  'may' be subject to an injunction even though 

  4  Plaintiffs know very well that the recipient is 

  5  not." 

  6             Do you see that?

  7       A.    Yes. 

  8       Q.    You didn't discuss with any of the 

  9  plaintiffs what they know, did you?

 10       A.    What they know?  No, I didn't.

 11       Q.    Well, you're saying -- you could read 

 12  that I think fairly to say that you're testifying 

 13  to what the plaintiffs know. 

 14             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question. 

 15       Q.    One way you may know that is having 

 16  discussed it with some of them.  All I am asking is 

 17  did you discuss it with any of them. 

 18             MR. LITVACK:  And I cannot believe 

 19       that's an objectionable question.

 20             MR. GARBUS:  Go ahead.

 21       A.    There are lots of other web sites that 

 22  have information out there.  It's discussed among 

 23  people in many different forums, and this is one of 

 24  the things I came to knowledge. 

 25       Q.    So your basis for that statement is not 


                                                             363
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  discussions with the plaintiffs?

  3       A.    No.  Well, they are not plaintiffs.  You 

  4  mean defendants, right? 

  5       Q.    No, you said plaintiffs.  "Plaintiffs 

  6  know very well that the recipient is not."

  7       A.    Oh, I see what you're saying.  No, I did 

  8  not discuss it with plaintiffs.

  9       Q.    Is part of your statement discussions 

 10  with your counsel?

 11       A.    I believe we have talked about this. 

 12       Q.    What did your plaintiffs tell you that 

 13  you adopted into that statement? 

 14       A.    Plaintiffs?

 15       Q.    What did your attorneys tell you that 

 16  you adopted into that statement? 

 17             MR. GARBUS:  I object to the question.

 18             MR. LITVACK:  On the basis of?

 19             MR. GARBUS:  It's attorney-client.

 20             MR. LITVACK:  He said it forms the 

 21       basis of what he put into this statement. 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  It's still 

 23       attorney-client.

 24             MR. LITVACK:  I would urge that you 

 25       waived it when you built it into that 


                                                             364
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       declaration.  Are you going to instruct him 

  3       not to answer? 

  4             MR. GARBUS:  Yes.

  5             MR. LITVACK:  Just so it is clear, our 

  6       position is that because he used it as part 

  7       of the foundation for that statement, you've 

  8       waived it.  

  9             MR GARBUS:  OK, I will let him answer 

 10       the question.  

 11             THE WITNESS:  Ask the question one 

 12       more time just so it's fresh in my mind.

 13             MR. GARBUS:  The understanding is that 

 14       it is not a waiver of the attorney-client 

 15       privilege, but with respect to this question 

 16       we'll permit him to finish the deposition. 

 17       Q.    What did your attorneys tell you in 

 18  regards to these letters?

 19       A.    My recollection is that while we may 

 20  have discussed it with my attorneys, I remember 

 21  this was an issue that came up on the Net 

 22  beforehand, that basically letters were being sent 

 23  out.  In fact, I believe this was posted on 

 24  cryptome.org as well, that other site, and other 

 25  sites, I am not certain as to which exact ones they 


                                                             365
  1                     Goldstein 

  2  were.  That other letters had been delivered, and 

  3  the way they were phrased was widely interpreted to 

  4  mean that although we have no jurisdiction over 

  5  you, you have to do what this letter says even 

  6  though it seemed apparent that they didn't have any 

  7  jurisdiction. 

  8             So to us, we saw that as kind of 

  9  posturing, as kind of a threat, that didn't have 

 10  any real basis.  So I think most of it was based on 

 11  discussions with other people on the Net.  I know I 

 12  talked about it in passing with my attorneys, but I 

 13  don't think it was the basis for that statement. 

 14       Q.    All I am asking you is what did they 

 15  say.

 16       A.    What did who say? 

 17       Q.    Your attorneys.

 18       A.    With regards to this? 

 19       Q.    Yes.

 20       A.    To be honest, I don't think they said 

 21  anything about the plaintiffs.  I don't remember 

 22  them saying anything about the plaintiffs.  I know 

 23  it was something that was touched upon very 

 24  briefly, but I don't think it was anything 

 25  significant.  I don't remember the details. 


                                                             366
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. LITVACK:  Done.  Your witness. 

  3             MR. GOLD:  Mr. Garbus, there are some 

  4       things you had promised for today.  One of 

  5       them was an answer to whether we could have 

  6       our computer expert examine defendant's 

  7       computer and see what we can retrieve 

  8       relevant -- 

  9             MR. GARBUS:  I would object to that.  

 10       I have had a conversation with the 

 11       defendant.  I think the deposition is over 

 12       now.  And my understanding of what's on that 

 13       computer that you want is, first off, if 

 14       that were done, it would cause his operation 

 15       to stop 2600.com, and the rest of his 

 16       operation could not go if the hard drives 

 17       were removed. 

 18             And secondly, as I understand it, the 

 19       hard drives contain a great deal of personal 

 20       information that does not just belong to 

 21       2600.com, or Emmanuel Goldstein, but also 

 22       has information from other people. 

 23             MR. GOLD:  So we're not interested in 

 24       taking the hard drives.  We're interested in 

 25       looking at them to see if we can retrieve 


                                                             367
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       messages relating to this lawsuit and DVD 

  3       and DeCSS.

  4             MR. GARBUS:  I understand.  I would 

  5       oppose it and we can go to the court for a 

  6       ruling on that.  Based on my understanding 

  7       of what's on the hard drives. 

  8             MR. GOLD:  Do you know that there's 

  9       nothing on the hard drives that relate to 

 10       DeCSS or this case? 

 11             MR. GARBUS:  No, I have never seen the 

 12       hard disks.  What I do know is that I spoke 

 13       to my client and he tells me that these hard 

 14       disks contain information from people other 

 15       than he, contain private correspondence 

 16       between people unrelated to 2600.com or 

 17       Emmanuel Goldstein. 

 18             And that therefore, it would be, as he 

 19       understands it, a violation of their privacy  

 20       to turn over those hard drives. 

 21             Secondly, as I said before, any 

 22       interference with the hard disks would cause 

 23       a disruption.  So I suspect we can get a 

 24       ruling before the judge on that and we would 

 25       oppose.


                                                             368
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GOLD:  Your position is you can 

  3       keep from us irrelevant communications that 

  4       we would be entitled to receive, but we 

  5       can't because they are in his hard disk and 

  6       we're not supposed to touch that.  That's 

  7       what I am understanding. 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I don't think you're 

  9       characterizing it correctly.  I do remind 

 10       you that we have asked for Mr. Schulman's 

 11       hard drive with respect to DeCSS tests that 

 12       he conducted and I don't want to get into 

 13       that. 

 14             I am saying that with respect to these 

 15       hard disks, I think that's an issue which we 

 16       should discuss with the court.  There may be 

 17       some way of doing it.  I don't know of a way 

 18       of doing it.  It may be that the judge could 

 19       appoint an impartial person and I don't know 

 20       that that's appropriate or something we 

 21       would want to do to determine what can or 

 22       can't be found on these hard drives. 

 23             I don't know how you do it, but I 

 24       don't have a sufficient knowledge of 

 25       technology to know how you can do this 


                                                             369
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       without invading the privacy of other 

  3       people's correspondence.  According to what 

  4       I have been told, not by Mr. Goldstein so 

  5       much, but by other people familiar with 

  6       these hard drives --

  7             MR. GOLD:  Are you willing to identify 

  8       at least once today, we'll get the 

  9       identification of someone who passes all 

 10       this information on to people, but would 

 11       remain totally secret?  Which expert?  Which 

 12       expert did you talk to? 

 13             MR. GARBUS:  No, I am not going to get 

 14       into that.  What I am telling you is that we 

 15       are prepared to deal with any application 

 16       you make before Judge Kaplan concerning 

 17       these hard drives.

 18             MR. GOLD:  I'm impressed.  Did you now 

 19       turn over to us all of the documents that 

 20       Mr. Goldstein turned over to you?

 21             MR. GARBUS:  My understanding is that 

 22       we have.  I had understood that --

 23             MR. GOLD:  Is there a way to get a yes 

 24       or no to that even if not here? 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  We have turned over to 


                                                             370
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       you all of the documents we had.  There are 

  3       other documents that we had asked be sent to 

  4       us.  We had understood they were to be 

  5       FedEx'd to us this morning from Long Island.  

  6       We haven't received them.

  7             MR. GOLD:  Which are they? 

  8             MR. GARBUS:  I think they are 

  9       additional copies of --

 10             THE WITNESS:  Earlier, they're really  

 11       issues. 

 12             MR. GARBUS:  -- earlier issues of The 

 13       Hacker Quarterly.  As soon as we get those 

 14       we'll of course give them to you.

 15             MR. GOLD:  We cannot consider this 

 16       deposition closed until we see the documents 

 17       that we should have gotten a couple of weeks 

 18       ago.

 19             One other thing I wanted to take up 

 20       with you, I don't know if you have ever seen 

 21       our notice to admit. 

 22             MR. GARBUS:  I have not.

 23             MR. GOLD:  It's past due, your 

 24       response to it is well past due.

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I have not seen it. 


                                                             371
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             MR. GOLD:  I would prefer not moving 

  3       before the court, and if you could tell me 

  4       tomorrow when we're going to get response to 

  5       our notice to commit, then I won't have to 

  6       go to the judge.

  7             MR. GARBUS:  I will speak to 

  8       Mr. Hernstadt.  I presume he has that. 

  9             MR. GOLD:  We have already sent him a 

 10       letter today -- 

 11             MR. GARBUS:  OK.

 12             MR. GOLD:  -- saying the same thing, 

 13       but I wanted you to know all of the things 

 14       that we feel that needed your light on.

 15             MR. GARBUS:  I appreciate the 

 16       courtesy.

 17             MR. LITVACK:  The only documents 

 18       produced are the tax returns and these 

 19       magazines. 

 20             MR. GARBUS:  No.  We had also, as I 

 21       told you yesterday, we had given you as part 

 22       of the motion on the injunction and the 

 23       linking, we had then taken the files that we 

 24       had and we attached it to the Goldstein 

 25       affidavit. 


                                                             372
  1                     Goldstein 

  2             So you had yesterday and Mr. Gold had 

  3       yesterday a pack of documents which Mr. Gold 

  4       asked me to have the client look at 

  5       overnight, which he did, which are these 

  6       pieces of paper.  So what I said yesterday 

  7       is we could again give you these documents 

  8       as the documents we have.  But we had given 

  9       them to you already.  And that's roughly 200 

 10       pages of something.  I don't know if it's 

 11       200 pages or not, but that's what it looks 

 12       like to me.

 13             MR. LITVACK:  I did not see them.  I 

 14       would suggest that Mr. Goldstein knows how 

 15       to print stuff from his hard disk as well as 

 16       just about anyone. 

 17             MR. GOLD:  Actually, he testified.  He 

 18       denied that.  He said he didn't think it 

 19       could be done.  He's tried to do it.

 20             MR. GARBUS:  To do what? 

 21             MR. GOLD:  And he can't do it.  That 

 22       was his testimony.

 23             MR. GARBUS:  To do what? 

 24             MR. LITVACK:  Then I stand corrected. 

 25             MR. GARBUS:  I think that also, as I 


                                                             373
  1                     Goldstein 

  2       said to you yesterday, that anything that 

  3       Mr. Goldstein has access to as I understand 

  4       it can be downloaded from the Web.  And what 

  5       I ask and what I would try and see whether I 

  6       can get done, and I raise that question 

  7       today, is whether there's some way, and you 

  8       had some of those documents yesterday, that 

  9       includes some of this, is whether through 

 10       any kind of electronic system we can give 

 11       you more documents that we have if we 

 12       haven't given you those and I am waiting for 

 13       a responsive answer to know that. 

 14             MR. GOLD:  Well, I think we are 

 15       finished for the day, but Mr. Goldstein, we 

 16       are not yet finished with your deposition 

 17       until we get our documents. 

 18             MR. GARBUS:  OK. 

 19             (Continued on the next page.)     

 20  

 21  

 22  

 23  

 24  

 25  


                                                             374
  1                     Goldstein

  2             THE VIDEOGRAPHER:  The time is 4:44 

  3       p.m. and this videotape deposition of 

  4       Mr. Emmanuel Goldstein will be adjourned 

  5       until a time and place to be agreed among 

  6       all parties and counsel, and this completes 

  7       tape number 5.

  8             (Time noted:  4:44 p.m.)

  9  

 10                        ____________________

 11                         EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN

 12  

 13  Subscribed and sworn to before me

 14  this ___ day of __________, 2000.

 15  

 16  _________________________________

 17  

 18  

 19  

 20  

 21  

 22  

 23  

 24  

 25  


                                                             375
  1                    

  2                C E R T I F I C A T E

  3  STATE OF NEW YORK    )

  4                       : ss.  

  5  COUNTY OF SUFFOLK    )

  6       

  7             I, THOMAS R. NICHOLS, a Notary Public 

  8       within and for the State of New York, do 

  9       hereby certify:

 10             That EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN, the witness 

 11       whose deposition is hereinbefore set forth, 

 12       was previously duly sworn and that such 

 13       deposition is a true record of the testimony 

 14       given by the witness.

 15             I further certify that I am not 

 16       related to any of the parties to this action 

 17       by blood or marriage, and that I am in no 

 18       way interested in the outcome of this 

 19       matter.

 20             IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto 

 21       set my hand this 29th day of June, 2000.

 22  

 23                              ____________________

 24                               THOMAS R. NICHOLS

 25  


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  1                   

  2  

  3  

  4  ------------------- I N D E X -------------------

  5  WITNESS                EXAMINATION BY        PAGE

  6  EMMANUEL GOLDSTEIN     MR. GOLD               168

  7                         MR. LITVACK            305

  8  

  9  ------------- INFORMATION REQUESTS --------------

 10  DIRECTIONS:   NONE

 11  RULINGS:  NONE

 12  TO BE FURNISHED:   177

 13  REQUESTS:  171

 14  MOTIONS:   180, 193, 198, 214, 225, 273, 296, 245

 15  

 16  -------------------- EXHIBITS ------------------- 

 17  PLAINTIFFS'                                 FOR ID.

 18      6      Series of documents on               240
                web sites and web listings  
 19  
         7      2-page document, 2600 News Archives, 292
 20             December 1999

 21      8      3-page document, 2600: The Hacker    321 
                Quarterly, entitled "Call to Action 
 22  

 23  

 24  

 25  


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