MAGICAL BLEND INTERVIEW: R. AND I. MILLER

MAGICAL  BLEND:  I wanted to talk to you both  about  your  three-book
series:  Magical and Ritual Use of Herbs, Aphrodisiacs, and  Perfumes. 
Maybe   before  we dive into that we can just talk about how you  both
got  interested in the occult,  magic, and ritual.  Why did you decide
to sit down  and do books to begin with?

IONA: My first exposure to metaphysics was in the  60's.  I  lived  in 
Ojai,  California, a Theosophical center.  Through  Theosophy, and the
excellent library there,  I learned about various mystic arts.  Of all
of them,  the system of magic seemed to be the most intriguing because
it had the most depth.   My study ranged far and deep.  Realizing this
was not exactly the "norm," I began investigating psychology also.  By
the  early 70's I was an avid Jungian.   I began writing to crystalize
my    thoughts   on   the   interface  between  mysticism  and   depth
psychology.   A  continuing interest is the relationship of psyche and
matter.

RICHARD:  My  first experience was as a child in high  school.   I was
part  of  a  study conducted by Duke University,  later known  as  The 
Foundation  for the Study of Man.   My mother was a known  clairvoyant
who  had been observed prior.   They were checking children to see  if
there was a hereditary  passing on of skills.   It turned out,  I am a
"transmitter"  rather   than  receiver.   However,  using a scientific
technique  I  developed,  I was able to win the 1st  National  Psychic
Tournament at the Gnosticon Conference,  1975,  sponsored by Llewellyn
Publications.  There were many world-class psychics there.  

MB:  When did you run into others interested in metaphysics?

RICHARD:  My  first  actual formal training  began,   like  my   wife, 
with  Theosophy.  From  there I explored Rosicrucians, Wicca, and Free
Masonry.   Soon, I also came to the same conclusion Iona did regarding
magic, after reviewing the options.

MB:  Well,  when  you  mention these different groups are you  talking
about initiations and going through training and that sort of thing?

RICHARD:  Each group had their own entrance exams and/or demonstration
of ability for grade.

MB:  How did you actually find these groups?   Some  of  these  groups
are  semi-secret.   I  am just curious as to how you both found  them. 
Was it a situation where you just stumbled on to people doing work and
you were initiated?

IONA:  Living  in  Ojai,  it  was easy to find  assorted  mystics  and 
astrologers who were willing to teach in those days.

RICHARD:  I don't think Iona joined anything early on.  I joined a lot
of  things  on a more casual basis.   I found out about them   through 
friends,  meetings, and going to weird places.  You hear a rumor,  and
you pick it up and check out the lead.   Then you meet more people and
they  show you something else.   The next thing you know,  you are  in
front  of  the real thing and you have  some  decisions to make  about
whether you are going to participate formally or not.

MB:  Iona,  do  you think that you  are  missing  something  in   that 
your   perspective  may be limited by not being initiated into any  of
these groups?

IONA: Perhaps, in terms of structure.  I'm more eclectic, and  much of
it never fit for me.   I've given a wide berth to psychism.  Now, I am
initiated  into a meditation tradition of living saints.   It is  very
private for me.

MB:  What do you think initiation is all about, by the way, Iona?  

IONA:   I  think  that initiation is one way of simplifying the  Great
Work by connecting yourself with a tradition of spiritual development. 
Why  re-invent  the wheel!   Ultimately,  though,  my path became  the
Jungian  one of individuation which doesn't require joining  anything. 
Life,  as  well as spiritual teachers,  creates rites of passage  that
influence the deep psyche.

RICHARD:   I  could  make  a second comment on that by saying  that  I
originally  was collecting these things like merit badges.   I  wanted
access  into certain kinds of groups which could demonstrate religious
experiences through their initiation processes.

MB:  This  brings up the  questions  of  semantics.   So,   Rick   and
Iona,  what would you call a religious experience?  Could you describe
that for me?  

RICHARD:   For  me  it was a type of connection with something so  far
beyond me that I was experiencing it rather   than having knowledge of
what  was  happening.   It  was  not so much a knowing as  a  kind  of
emotional  catharsis for me.   It was like a pivot point or a landmark
or  a point in space/time  that I could use for orientation and use as
a tool to go somewhere else.

MB:  I guess I should say,  did you feel that you were in the presence
of divine forces or what?  When you use the word "religion" it is such
a loaded term.

RICHARD:  Mystical  experience  is  much closer to  my  meaning   than
religious experience.  I tried to choose it as a word that more people
would  relate  to,  but it was not orthodox religion.   It is  a  more
direct mystical experience.

MB:   So  basically,  once you started interacting with these  groups,
Rick, that is when you began learning about ritual, I suppose.

RICHARD:  Yes, tricks of the trade, shortcuts.  In my apprenticeship I
learned the whys and wherefores of structuring ritual.  Essentially it
means preparing a switch to go from profane into "sacred"  space.   If
you prepare a ritual      correctly, you have a switch to turn off the 
experience so it doesn't take over your personality.

Many  times  people have uncontrolled vision or  psychic   experience, 
and  it frightens them.   It led my mother to  suppress  her  ability. 
What I sought,  realizing I was telepathic,  was a degree of  control. 
Probably   the  whole  concept of control is illusionary,  but it  was
one  thing  that   attracted me to ritual magic over  other  kinds  of
mysticism.  Also, there is healing within the mysteries sometimes.

MB:   Iona,  do  you  think  that  ritual  plays  a  role  in  Jungian
investigation?

IONA:  More  now  than in the past,  with the increasing attention  on
personal mythology.   Analysis is a ritual that takes place in a safe,
sacred  precinct.   Since  my studies in Jungian psychology and  magic
were congruent, I saw that as a way of developing living relationships
with the archetypes.

MB:  Aren't  there  standard  modalities  for  guiding  a  person,  or 
yourself,  into  archetypal encounters and relationships,  and  things
like that?

IONA:   Generally,  the  Jungians will use active imagination or dream
work.   Alchemy and magic were the ancient ways,  and they still work.
They are much more systematic,  or codified.   Ritual is also a way of
connecting with nature and its cycles, becoming experientially part of
the oneness of the universe.

RICHARD:  There are other aspects important in ritual  also.   You set
up your form of psychological protection.  If you drive an automobile,
you know what a seatbelt and an airbag mean.  Those are a part of your
automobile's   overall   design.    A   ritual  is   done   similarly,
metaphorically  speaking.   You want to have     a sense of protection
or availability of protection.   Also it  brings a cleansing, allowing
a finer focus of attention.  

Some  psychics use no protection and fall indiscriminately into trance
and are "taken over"  by a spirit which might be benign but could just
as  easily be malevolent.   It is difficult to know  even though these
spirits assure you they are not bad.  You have no way of knowing where
that source of energy is coming from.

If  you draw a circle of protection,  using a ritualistic format,  you
clear  a  working space and call in specific energies  or  archetypes. 
Its been used for centuries - tried and true.  Most new age channeling
is done with no preparation.  This cleansing process for inner work is
called  a banishing preparation.   Prior,  you may even take a  ritual
bath or sweat.   Those who automatically or indiscriminately fall into
a trance state are open psychologically to the phenomena of possession
by seemingly alien forces.

MB:  Well Rick, there are all kinds of trance states.  When I do a lot
of  writing I'm in a trance state.   To me,  a great poet creates  his
best  work when he is in a trance.   I think I understand what you are
saying  though.   You are talking about whether there is a dissolution
of the ego.  

RICHARD: Yes, but even ego-death is O.K. with preparation so it can be
integrated.   There are a lot of questions that arise and that is just
one of them.  I have always felt most comfortable with Grimoire magic,
which  uses formulas.   This is probably because that is where I first
entered my studies:  Abra-Melin the Mage, The Greater Key of Solomon -
that  sort of work.   It is like being a mathematician who does really
well  in  algebra.   I  have an affinity toward that kind  of  system. 
Ritual  may  also  be  internalized and done  without  the  formality. 
Internally done, ritual is very subtle and ever-present.

MB:   So,  you are saying that you believe rituals are inherent in the
human experience?

RICHARD:  Yes, I think so.  It is one way of approaching  integration, 
or  unity.

MB:  Rick,  you  mentioned  having contact with spirits,  a  type   of
experience  which comes with the territory in occult work.   I want to
ask  you both,  what exactly do you think happens when someone gets in
touch  with  a  spirit?   Is  this part of their  unconscious  or  are
entities running around that are intelligent,  like human beings,  but
separate?    Just  what  do  you make of that   type   of   subjective 
experience?

IONA:  Are we speaking in the ritual context, or just in daily life? 

MB:  I would say daily life, probably.   If someone tells you they are
in touch with spirits, or trying to get in touch with spirits, what do
you think is happening?

IONA:  That  is  subject to a wide range of interpretations  generally 
depending   on   what  they  mean  by  that  expression,   and   their
interpretation of it.  

MB:   Let  me ask you this.   Have you had an experience with what  is
called 'spirits' yourself?

IONA: Well, perhaps what some people would call them that.  In Magick, 
we have the concept of the Holy Guardian Angel.  Following Jung, I see
them  as  expressions of the self,  or archetypes.   When they  appear
negatively,  I  call them complexes rather than demons.   I deal  with
these  energies  every day in my therapy practice.   When we  perceive
them "outside," it is usually a projection of disowned aspects.

RICHARD:  Of course,  it is arbitrary whether they appear as  external
or  internal forces.   What you are trying to do when you name a force
is either get control of it,  or develop a relationship with it.  This
may  be  viewed  simply as a fantasy constructed for  the  purpose  of
integration.   In your mind's eye, when you can see how it works, then
you somehow have a key or gate to unlock that force.

MB:  What is the difference between "low magic" and Theurgy?

IONA:   Low  magic  is  the  evocation  (calling  up)  of  demons,  or
complexes,  or  your  own sub-personalities,  in order to get them  to
swear   allegiance  to  you.    Clearing  the  issues  they  represent    
serves  the  personality  and  will.    High  magic,  or  theurgy,  is
invocation (calling in) of supra-personal,  or archetypal energy known
in  the  past  as Gods and Goddesses.   Theurgy is  the  technique  of
bringing that energy and those qualities within you in a sacred space. 
It  serves  itself.    It  implies  bringing  in  resources  from  the
transpersonal realm. 

MB: Let me ask you both about the pen-name "Philo Stone" which you use
for your most arcane writing.   Rick, you mentioned a few things about
being  part  of  some ritual or intentional meditation to   create   a 
"Magical  Child."    Could you talk about that?    How did you  choose
your name Philo Stone?

RICHARD:  We  did an experiment in magic,  our first one together,  in
1976,  which we used to create a Magical Child.   At the time,  we had
separate agendas.    Essentially a union was formed between Iona and I
that created this "Child" through Sex Magic.  The force coalesced into
an  entity,  or a consciousness of its own,  which is the force behind
much  of  our  more visionary writing.    Yet,  that  writing  is  not
"channeled" in the commonly used sense of the word.

IONA:  The ritual was based on the Jungian classic, Women's Mysteries,
by M.  Esther Harding.   What came out of it was  a  personality which
was neither of us, but this consciousness could somehow take our ideas
and amalgamate them into a personal system of magic.  It simply stands
for  our  combined   synergistic energies.   It is a metaphor  of  our
mutual process.   Philo of Alexandria brought Hermetic qabalism to the
Greek culture.   Our "Philo Stone" is a reference to the Philosopher's
Stone  -  our  own "piece of the Rock,"  so to  speak.   Its  aim  was
accessing our creativity and self actualization.

MB:   So,  are  you saying you both had telepathic experiences or  you
both  went into a similar or identical inspired state - I am not clear
on what you are saying.

IONA:   There   were  lots  of  phenomena,   paranormal  events,   and
synchronicity.   It had a synergetic effect.  It was a form of service
to  a  goal  beyond either one of  us.   Its  still  happening,  still
maturing in its effect.  It set a force in motion.  

RICHARD:  Philo  Stone is an androgynous entity writing about climbing
the Middle Pillar of the Tree of Life,  with all the practicality of a
physicist and the meaning of psychology.   For us it was a blending of
the   opposites,   the   intuitive   and  instinctual aspects  of  the
feminine  and  masculine.   Those explorations lead  to  growth.   For
example, I got more in touch with my inferior function, feeling.  This
balancing  of  thinking  and feeling allowed me access to  the  Middle
Pillar experiences I probably would not have otherwise.  Often when we
choose  a mate,  it is symbolic of what we consider our ideal feminine
aspect inside of ourselves.

IONA:  Or missing elements in the personality makeup.

RICHARD:   When  you reach into other dimensions or universes to  find
this  balance,  in most cases it occurs on the physical plane  through
your  mate.    What we were attempting to do was find a bridge between
all of these dimensions through ritual.  The structure of it was based
on  scenarios  in Harding's work,  which gives accounts of some  basic
rituals of earlier matriarchal cultures and goddesses,  such as Ishtar
and Isis.  

MB:  Yes, right.  Your books seem mostly focused on the nuts and bolts
of magical technology,  including the colors, scents,  and plants from
the   environment   which  can  be  incorporated   into   constructing
Pathworkings to quicken spiritual growth.  

IONA:   Yes.   Employing  the  correspondences of the Tree of Life  by
Pathworking  means  changing states of consciousness at will,  and  it
works both ways.   Those things reacting to your energy help create an
atmosphere  as  well.   The common meeting ground of both  matter  and
psyche is the imagination.

RICHARD:    That  is  the  purpose  of  it.    There  is  a  symbiotic
relationship.

IONA:   The  correspondences help create a sacred moment,  a  holistic
moment.   The  senses  are  the  quickest  way  to  access  a  Gestalt
experience, or memory unit, either imaginal or physical.

RICHARD:   For example, regarding the use of perfumes: the nose is the
only  known  place  where  the brain directly  accesses  the  physical
universe.   What  a  perfect  way  to get  access  to  specific  brain
functions  and  associations.   The  scent helps set the stage  for  a
ritual or archetypal encounter.   If you have access directly into the
brain  with incenses and perfumes,  you can make the imagery better or
more enhanced.

MB:   Do you think it would be possible to use that sort of technology
to  guide  someone  that  is  already in a psychotic  state  or  in  a
non-rational state?

IONA:  All of magical practice is in the non-rational mode.  It is art
for art's sake.  It would be possible to do, but being a non-directive
therapist,  I  would  be following that person's process as they  were
presenting  it  at the time.   Magic is not for psychotics,  but  some
scents  and colors are naturally calming.   Ritual magic would not  be
the therapy of choice there.

MB:  Why not?

IONA:   If  your child is drowning,  you don't evoke the  Undines,  or
water  spirits.   You  jump  in and save them.   There is no  need  to
confuse the planes.  It is similar with a soul already drowning in the
imagery   of  the  unconscious.    Maturity       and  stability   are
traditional   prerequisites   for  magical  training.    It   requires
discipline.

MB:   I  am  seeing  in  your books that you are  drawing  heavily  on
correspondences  between certain deep parts of the psyche and  certain
things in the physical environment.

RICHARD:  Well, you see:  That is the concept.  They are not separate. 
What  you are trying to do is reach across the planes.   Remember  the
old  adage,   "As  above, so below."  If you have it on one plane, you
literally  have it on  all  planes.   What     you are trying to do is
find  tools  that assist you in making  those temporal connections  so
that the event can happen on an imaginal level.  If it can be  done on
that  level,  it is real.   And you can direct it just like an artist. 
In  fact, that is what magic truly is.

IONA:  It  is an aspect of art,  one mode of artistic expression.   It
differs   from   ego-gratifying   fantasy,   because   it   serves   a 
transpersonal aim.   Imagination is not something you make up,  rather
it is something that happens to you.   Ritual,  archetypes, myth,  and
dream are all expressive of a developmental level.     Metaphor is the
language  form  of that spectrum of the psyche.   Like   cures   like. 
When  someone's  root  metaphors change,  so does  their  self  image,
feelings, and beliefs.

RICHARD:   Metaphors  are  very efficient for going directly into  the
source of transpersonal energies.   Of course, as with all short cuts,
there  are  some perils.   You need to know where the "cow  pies"  and
"land mines"  are.   Hopefully,  with a     psychologist and physicist
writing,  you  get  a broad enough based perspective so that  you  can
navigate  those waters a little more easily.   Consciousness  maps  or
modeling  systems make it more accessible to you.   Even if you  don't 
fully  understand them,  you can use them.  You may not understand the
rings  in  your  car,  but  you  know if you  have  certain  kinds  of
compression the automobile  will  function.  

Essentially what we are trying to do is give you enough of the physics 
and   the psychology of it that you have several planes  bridged,  and
can allow the rest of it "to flow,"  as it were.  It is a metaphysical
worldview  that is  not  inconsistent  with     science.   Flow is the
key   word,   of  course.    Aleister  Crowley  used  to  talk   about
"enflamement,"  or energized enthusiasm.   It is that part of being an
active  participant where you are caught up in the act itself,  become
part of the dream, if you will.

IONA: It is not much different than the Taoist sense of being  in  the 
flow.   That  is  why,  at a certain point,  ritual is not so  much  a
psychological necessity as an aesthetic expression.   It expresses the
sheer joy of a  consciously  lived  life.   At a certain point,  magic
precipitates  into  daily life through synchronicity and  through  the
flow.   Understanding the language of symbolism you can read into your
daily  life the things that previously you could only comprehend   and 
access     during ritual or through divination.  

RICHARD:  Ritual  becomes part of your total waking experience.   When 
you    reach  that  stage  of  relationship  with  yourself  and  your
environment,  this is a state-specific form of consciousness.   In the
O.T.O.  they call this Grade 7,  or Adeptus Exemptus.   That means you
are  exempt  from a host of reactions,  because you are in synch  with
your  universe.   You  can   be  a  great magician and  still  not  be
exempt.   It's similar to someone on Wall Street  who  can materialize
money out of nothing, to use a low level metaphor.  You get the idea.

IONA:  Like the adage, "If you're so smart, how come you're not rich?"  

RICHARD:  What  you  are  doing  is trying to  go  for   higher  plane 
experiences.   Your  inner plane experience is where the richness  and
real wealth lies.   This was true in alchemy.  It is the "gold" of the
philosophers,  mined  from  the  lead  of     profane experience.   It
has  nothing to do with the physical,   material  plane,   but that is
often seen as a reference point of your ability, or functionality.  

IONA:   The point of magic, getting into a conversation with your Holy 
Guardian   Angel,  is not substantially different from the  experience 
Abraham  Maslow  described  as Self-Actualization.   He also describes
the   peak  experiences  that   go   along   with  that  state.    The
stabilization  and generalization of that state  into  daily  life has
certain specific characteristics.

MB:    Is  this  Angel  an  inner/intra  psychic  relationship  or  an
autonomous, non-human creature?  Please explain.

IONA:  Jung  spoke of this same force as a relationship with the  self 
through   an  on-going inner dialogue.   The alchemists called it  the
meditatio.   It means a relationship with the self or one's wholeness. 
Others know it as the Higher Self.

RICHARD:  On the Tree of Life it is defined as Tiphareth,  and relates 
to   the  biological and psychic heart center.   That is like  getting
access to the other nine-tenths of your cerebral cortex.  Tiphareth is
only half way up the climb on the Tree of Life.   Further up comes the
Abyss,  a void that precedes the     experience of Union with Godhead,
or the Source.

MB:  Are there actually schools that a person can go to and learn?  

RICHARD:   A few, but that is why we created our magical encyclopedia,
The  Holistic Qabala.   It synthesizes depth  psychology,  magic,  and 
current   physics  into a symphonic worldview.   Phyllis  Seckler,  an
original initiate of Crowley's     O.T.O.  runs her College of Thelema
like a rigorous university.   However,  the only techniques taught are
those of Crowley, with some yoga thrown in.  

MB:   I  am  trying to be more specific about your books.   Are  there
actually  schools of spiritual paths that a person that really  wanted
to  take advantage of herbs,  perfumes,  or aphrodisiacs could go  for
instruction and  experimentation?

RICHARD:   There  was  a Church of the Tree of Life,  and  the  Native
American Church.   There have been a number small cults,  short-lived,
over the years.

MB:   There  are medical traditions,  like Chinese herbal medicine and
Ayruveda  that use plant substances,   l've always been fascinated  by
the legendary "soma".  

RICHARD:  Yes.   The  most formal or ritualistic uses of herbs are  in
Chinese and Indian medicine,  and of course in shamanism.    Those are
the  two primary  places  where there is considerable tradition in the
way  a  given  herb  is prepared.   Don't   forget  the  Japanese  Tea
Ceremony.   Of  course the science of pharmacology is a whole new kind
of school forming in the west.

IONA:   There  has   always  been underground use  of  substances  for
altering consciousness.   Earlier in history, it was the intellectuals
who favored them - Paracelsus,  Lord Byron, Freud, Aldous Huxley, even
Walt Disney.

RICHARD:  Our reason for the initial titles in the "Magical and Ritual 
Use"  series was because a lot of people were taking drugs to get high
without  the   slightest idea about dose and effect.   When you  alter
your consciousness,  it is a shamanic journey or act of magic.  If you
are  not  properly directed you can invite experiences and  events  to
occur  that  may  be adverse.   Remember Tim  Leary's   dictum   about    
"set  and setting,"  the condition of the mind and environment.   What
you  want  to  do is direct these heightened experiences as  cathartic
focal  points.   The  herb  book was primarily written as a manual  on
how  to use legal highs and includes what not     to do.   If you  are
going   to  alter  your  consciousness  it  is  wise  to   have   some    
spiritual direction to it.  The aphrodisiac book was more a fun  thing
-  a   coffee-table  book  about  drugs  for  sex,   directed  into  a
ritualistic  format  so  readers  also     gained  some  knowledge  of
tantric yoga and sex magic.

IONA:   We tried to show how these drugs were used in a sacred context
for experience and experimentation in the past.  

RICHARD:  Then,  of  course,  the  perfume  book was based  on  lona's
original   work  in preparing for ritual.   She spent a lot of time in
her ritual design with  oils because of the implications for anchoring
psychological  states and qualities.      The book is set up to use on
the physical, emotional, mental or  spiritual level.

MB:  What do you think of the Doctrine of Signatures, Rick?  

RICHARD:  Culpepper's original statement on the doctrine of signatures
was  basically  that you determine the use of a plant by its  physical
characteristics.   So,  if  the  leaf looked like a lung it got  named
"lungwort,"  and probably was good for the  lungs.   Red clover, which
was  reddish  was  obviously  for  the  blood.   Today,  in  terms  of
correspondences,  we  have found that many times the actual colors and 
doctrine  of signatures for these plants,  were the correct  analysis. 
For example,  red   clover is red because it is very high in iron and,
of  course,  we  know that iron is very good for your  blood.   Oregon
grape root and goldenseal are  yellow and,  thus, relate to the liver,
lower bowel,  and urine.   We are finding that  blue  materials   have
manganese and trace minerals that cause these colorings.   Conversely,
there are many old plant remedies which don't perform well.

Today's  magic  or  alchemy is  quantum  biochemistry.   Chemists  run
analyses  on the specific reactions in the body these plants  produce. 
Science   now  makes  a  distinction    between  a  medicinal  and   a
pharmaceutical.    'Medicinal'  refers  to  alleged   use,    while  a
'pharmaceutical'  is  something that has solid chemistry.   It doesn't
mean  that it is more correct, by the way.  

There  were  some very interesting correspondences in the doctrine  of 
signatures.    Often  times researchers looked in these directions  to
find    analogs.    Breakthrough    discoveries  create  fads  in  the
botanical  market.   Gingko is the herb of choice"  right now.   Every
year  there  is  a new darling,  the most popular herb   for   healing  
yourself.   Yet  most  people  don't have a clue how  to  really   use 
medicinals.   Yet,  to  have some structuring through the magical  and
ritual  use  of these  alterants   seems to me an appropriate  way  to
introduce the subject.   It isn't the  whole  story, of course.  It is
just an important one for consideration.

MB: I noticed that in The Magical and Ritual Use of Perfumes book that 
you  correlate the technical steps of perfumery with the psychological
process.   I  was  wondering if you could talk a little bit about  the
similarities between alchemy and the actual chemistry of perfumery.  

IONA: Right, they are analogous.  Actually, in the beginning, the  two 
developed   hand in hand.   In Arabian alchemy there is just a natural
metaphor   between  the   process of psychological transformation  and
the  process  of transforming  plant   materials into oil in  a  flask
during  the  Distillation.   The heating  and  dissolving    of  plant
materials  in  a  sealed system frees their  essence.   In   spiritual 
growth,    this essence is the soul.   Distillation means the breaking
down  of  outworn  or random attitudes that alienate us from the self. 
Then the soul is  liberated,  and   can "rise" through meditation.

MB:  Rick,  why do you think the FDA has a "watch list" for herbs.   A
lot   of   them  aren't  even  psychoactive  or  lend  themselves   to
psychoactive formulas.  What  is  FDA monitoring?

RICHARD:  Comfrey  is  an example.   Bad research sometimes leads   to 
statements   about an herb,  and others jump on the  bandwagon.   Some
universities  concluded that comfrey has too much pyrilozine alkaloids
and  oxalic  acid.   They  are both hard on   your   liver,    so  FDA
disallowed  them for human consumption.   The problem began when a bad
batch  of  comfrey  was imported from Brazil for use in  a  major  tea
manufacturer.  

The product was infested with morning glory,  a highly toxic plant and
similar  to the alkaloids discovered in comfrey root.   Those  tropane
alkaloids  in morning glory  are  poisonous,    so when people started
eating this comfrey, they reported the poisoning.  Almost immediately,
many  large  tea  companies took their comfrey off  the  market.   FDA
looked   at   two    university  studies  from  University  of  Oregon
(Corvallis)  and Washington State University.    They both showed  the
alkaloids and oxalic acid in the comfrey.  

Later   studies   at   University of British Columbia,  University  of
Washington,  and  subsequent studies at Eugene's University of Oregon,
indicated  that the harmful substances were absolutely present in  the 
root,  but not necessarily in the leaf, which is the part we  normally 
use.   Comfrey   tea   is mostly comfrey leaf,  while the root is used
more  for  cosmetics.   A  tremendous   protein source was blackballed
erroneously and is still on  detention,  on  the   watch list.

MB:  Going  back  to the perfume book,  I wanted to ask you about  the
Qabala  and   qabalistic initiation.   I know that there is one school 
of   qabala  that  demands   that the aspirant be a certain age before
they are initiated.   I  was  wondering  why that might be.   What are
your thoughts on that?

IONA:   That's right.   The Jewish tradition recommended that a person
did not study the Qabala until they were over 40 year old.   Jung said
a  similar  thing   regarding  the   process   of  individuation.   It
requires a certain kind of maturity  to  move into a rich inner world,
after  the extroverted aspects of life like career building and  child
rearing.  

A more introspective period comes with  middle  age  which  seems   to
bring something to the process that is  intrinsically  necessary.  You 
must solve identity and intimacy issues first.  However, individuation
is  pressed some people prematurely.   How they respond to it is  like 
the  initiatory  call  of the shaman.  You either respond to it or you
don't  weather  the  storm  in  dealing   with the unconscious  forces
that  come up.   You have to deal with them or are destroyed by  them. 
The  personality matures or regresses.   Many are called,  but not all
get  through "the dark night of the soul."   Some  become unstable  or
even mentally ill.

RICHARD:   There are perils and ordeals on the path.   The Qabala is a
short cut.  That is why it requires a sense of balance in terms of how
you react to a given experience.   A young girl could be quite excited
by  an apparition,  where an older person might realize that it was  a
projection  of  his  own  mind.   The mature   person  has  a  totally
different  relationship that allows for growth in that  arena,  rather
than a traumatic   experience that might lead to post-traumatic stress
syndrome.

IONA:  It is unwise to focus on developmental processes when  you  are 
in    the     grounding  phase  of  life.    It  is  not   necessarily 
psychologically    healthy    to   be    prematurely   interested   in
transcending  off the earth  plane.   Maturity  brings a harmonization
between  corporeality and the perfectionists  ideal  of  spirituality.  
Those  who  are called early need to remember to keep their  feet   on 
the   ground.    You have to find yourself before you find your higher
self.

M.B:  What about revelation, transcendentalism, etc.?

RICHARD:  You  have  to find your higher self before you even have   a 
clue  about  God,  because union with Godhead is half again further up
the  Tree.  There  is  Self-Realization, then God-realization.

IONA:  The  process  of  psychological illumination  requires   having
formed a stable, coping ego, before it requires dropping the ego.  For
true enlightenment,  the ego needs to be part of the process,  part of
wholeness.   We   need to have  psychological understanding keep  pace
with  mystical experiences so that our  mental  and  emotional  selves
grow  simultaneously.   Otherwise,  the intellectual or emotional self 
lags  behind.   When  they keep pace,  impulsivity matures  into  true
spontaneity,  "Be  Here, Now," or the Zen state.  Ego learns it is the
center of  the  personality, but not the center of the entire being.

MB:   That's a good way to put it.  I noticed in all three  books  you 
dealt   with   traditional herbs,  perfumes and aphrodisiacs and their 
connection   to   traditional   systems.   I was wondering,  with  the
advent of  modern  technology,   gene  splicing,  and biochemistry if,
Rick,  you know of any new types of herbs that may be developed?    Is
it  possible  to,  let's say,  take the best parts of clove  oil   and 
genetically   attach it to cinnamon oil or something like that?  Would
it duplicate the spiritual as well as physical benefits?

IONA:  You don't need to do it with herbs.  You can do it with RNA.

MB:  I am not sure what you mean.  

RICHARD:  Well, you can design your proteins and precursors to have an
effect  on  the  body/mind.   That is one reason why I  write  on  the
chemistry.    Man  can  be  viewed  as  both  an  electromagnetic  and
biochemical  entity.   In   fact,  biochemistry    is just  an  octave
different than electromagnetic and it is a more accessible  one.   You
can  use  the  olfactory sense to condition the state of  mind  -  the 
biochemistry    of it and cross reference that response with  specific
archetypes.

IONA:  We  are  talking  about  the filling  of  receptor  sites  with 
specific  chemical   geometries.  What they have experimentally now is
a  way of washing  proteins  across   receptor sites and finding  what
ones  match  up  with  one another.   So there will not  only  be  new
designer drugs created that way, but also mind alterants  created from
RNA.

RICHARD: This is one new direction in magic for better living  through 
chemistry.   In the near future you may have a mood-altering vial that
contains  designer  RNA,  hooked to certain specific fragrance groups. 
Inhaled,  they  contact  the  brain directly and cause  a  variety  of
predetermined responses.

MB:  I  know because of my own research in writing PM & E,  there is a 
big   debate that has been going on for a long time regarding  natural
versus synthetic.   I  was   wondering, from a magical standpoint, and
also from the standpoint of physics,   what is the difference, if any,
regarding derivation?

RICHARD:  Yes.   There are differences and non-differences.   Part  of 
the   essence  of   ritual is the actual creating or preparation of  a
particular  herb,  so  it  transcends the physical  chemistry  through
positive associations.  It is part of  the  ritual, the esthetic side. 
Then  there  is  the chemical level which is  geometric  and  responds
specifically to geometric information.

From a gross mechanical view,  whether or not ascorbic acid comes from
a  natural  or synthetic sources,  it moves into the  body like a  key
entering  a lock.   It doesn't matter where it is from.   That is  why  
generic vitamins are just as good as vitamins that have been made from
natural   sources.   Obviously, if you are a Jain or a vegetarian, you
are  going  to  have  some   preference in having  your  multi-vitamin
from vegetable sources rather than  animal,   but that is not physical
chemistry.  That is something else.

Now,  the  next  argument that is used on resources of natural  versus
synthetic   is   that often herbs represent a complex of  chemistries,
and  there  are synergetic   effects,  like buffering.   For  example,
golden seal contains hydrastine and berberine,   and somehow elicits a
better  response from the liver than the raw   chemicals.   Why?    We
don't know these things yet.  We are just now developing a new "voodoo
witchcraft"   which we call biochemistry.

IONA:  In  perfumery,  there doesn't seem to be any difference between 
the   psychological  responses to a synthetic or a natural  ingredient
except in the  esthetic   sense.  The naturals are softer, fuller, and
rounder,  but  in some cases the synthetics are preferred when use  of
naturals means exploiting endangered  species.  

MB:   You  mentioned  earlier about using these substances  to  invoke
archetypes,  encounters,  and  relationships.   Let's  talk about  the
inverse of that.  If someone has spontaneous archetypal eruptions, are
there  corresponding  scents that will  manifest on their body or  the
atmosphere around them?

IONA:  None  leap to mind,  except the sweet odors associated with the
appearance of Saints.  

MB:   For instance, when I worked with schizophrenics,  I noticed that
often  times   there would be a very noticeable odor around them  that
was distinctive,  even  prior  to medication.

RICHARD:  There  may  be sympathetic changes in body  functions,  like 
sweat   glands.   You,  Tom,  have a nose for sniffing out the  truth. 
Some people are more alert to  olfactory signals.   They have a larger
"scent vocabulary."  

MB:  In  mythology  there are some correspondences when different  God
forms appear.  Are there corresponding scents and sounds, and colors?

RICHARD:  Yes: Dionysus and pine, Artemis and balm,  Venus  and  rose. 
All  the  senses  have their systems of correspondence on  the   Tree. 
Colors,   musical  tone,  and aromas.   The Tree of Life is like a big
filing  system  of correspondences.   When you add this color or  that
sound  you know what place on the Tree that  represents,  in terms  of
temporal connectivity with your conscious, or  your  subconscious.

MB:   So, you have three books in the series.   Is this the end or are
you planning more?  

RICHARD:   Not  for  this introductory series.   We are  writing  more
substantive  things   now on the interface between psyche and  matter. 
It  is our way  of  uniting  the  opposites of science and  mysticism. 
We  are  working  on  projects  as  diverse  as   the  rhythmic  waves
inherent in prime numbers,  dream-healing,  to Qabalistic video-games. 
The Holistic Qabala,  which has not been published yet, is a series of
twelve volumes.  

The  Modern Alchemist is in press.   In that book,  we  take  a   14th
century  alchemical text,  translate it from old German into  English,
and   add   a  psychological commentary from the Jungian  perspective. 
It   spans  the  developmental  spectrum from awakening to perfection. 
The first half is about therapy,  the second  about the Path.  It is a
translation  in  terms  of the  modern  transformational  process.   A
contemporization of alchemy.

IONA:   I  guess  you  could  call it The Magical and  Ritual  Use  of
Alchemy!

MB:  But, you said something about doing one on gemstones?

RICHARD:  Well, that market is pretty well exhausted.  If we  were  to 
do   something   on gemstones,  our approach would be  unique.   There
would  be  only 14 chapters in this book,  one for each of the  Bravis
Lattices.  They represent the occult or  hidden  blueprint for stones. 
These  are the only 14 different ways that matter bonds with itself to
form  a  crystal state.   For example,  carbon,  graphite,  quart  and
diamond all  share  the  same  lattice.  

These  unique  geometric  structures  form the realm  of  solid  state
physics.    We   would  probably  create  a  ritual  aspect  based  on
visualizing   these   geometries.   We investigated this in a book  we
wrote called The Diamond Body, which links the geometry in Buckminster
Fuller's book Synergetics with the Tree of Life.   Certain biochemical
relationships result, much like responses to scent.  

In other words, you can cause unique chemistry changes in your mind by 
envisioning  different,  specific, unique geometry in your mind's eye. 
So,  "Magical  and Ritual Use of Gemstones"  would be  14  geometrical
visualizations you might use in meditation to move your body  toward a
certain specific and predetermined biochemical states.

MB:  So, how about combining that with this virtual reality equipment,
Rick.  You wouldn't have to hold it in your mind's eye.  You could see
it in three-D right around you physically.

RICHARD:  Yes, that is our current direction with Magick.  

MB:  Well, that should prove interesting.  


















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