From: ttozer@aol.com (TTozer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: So long IGS and IGS ladder
Reply-To: ttozer@aol.com (TTozer)
Date: Fri Jul 21 20:08:25 1995

Pleass forgive me about the length of this message, but I think that
everyone should be aware of that is happening with the IGS Go Ladder. 
Please read all of the messages.

The Supposedly banning of geek and his supporters have affected another
area of Go.  The IGS Go Ladder.  Since tromp was a member of the ladder a
decsion had to made wheateher or not he could continue on the ladder.  I
asked the member for thier opinion.  I also talked to Tweet and other
pople on IGS about what is happen in reguars to this.  My final decsion
was to state that Matches had to be played on IGS.  I have include the
email message that I sent to the members about this descion fullt knowing
that there was going to be some fall out from this.

I want to state for the record that tweet has and is continuing to do a
great job administering IGS.  Has anyone thought that since IGS was
purchased by I*net that he is following policies and instructions from
them and actually does not have a choice in the matter.

Also, I want to state that  I back any system admin's decsion about the
banning a person or site.  IHMO a banned if it happens is the last act of
resolving a problem.  From what I gather it is not tweet's fault.  Just
because he does not chose to defend himself does not mean that all that is
said about him is true.

IMHO this is hurting the Go community as a whole. in the near furture
almost everyone is going to be forced to chose a side on this and both
will become polarized.  It will turn into a cold war.  There are other
things happening that that not many people are aware of and I encourage
tweet to tell his side of the story.  I talked to him for about 45 mins
over this. 

Again IMHO, I feel that the only negative states that have been made are
from geek and other people.  could this be some sort of indicator about
what is goin on?

Tweet has been acused of branwashing me, but could others be trying to do
it to you with misinformation?

As I say below this decsion was well thought out and tweet did not
influence my decsion at all as some people have stated.

I have acctually received a message from geek, who is not a member of the
ladder about my decsion.  I have include it and my response to geek about
it.

**************************************************************************
**********************MY MESSAGE TO TWEET ABOUT THIS
Hello,

I am running a ladder on IGS and a question has arisen that I think that
your opinion should asked for.  

First before I go any further I want you to know that I full understand
the  postion that as a system administrator you have the right to grant or
not  grant a person access to your system for what ever reason and do not 
understand the situation that has arisen from this.  

Now you probably have an idea what I might ask.  The question is: what
would your stand be if the ladder should allow people alternate means to
play in the IGS Go Ladder.  This could include but not be limited to using
IGS, direct modem connection, playing face to face, or an alternate go
server.

The question whether IGS ladder games ought to be played only on IGS is a
difficult one for me to solve.  It is a matter of loyality and should be 
reduced to its simplest form:  `Is the IGS ladder part of IGS or just a
separate club of go players meeting usually on IGS?'  I have placed this 
question to the lagger members with mixed results.

From its origin, i. e. when Evan Behre founded the IGS ladder, it was part
of IGS, thought of as a `playground' for IGS players who want to challenge
(and be challenged by) other IGS players of possibly much different rank. 
It was also`officially' part of IGS since it was announced in IGS's
message of the day (intro screen).  I let the ball drop here with not
working with you to add 
info into the motd and help files.  So, in my opinion, the present status
of the ladder is that of a go club of its own.

Personally I think that the ladder should be part of IGS.  The simple
reason  for this is that there should be a site where all the games can
take place  without any complications.  But, if the members wish to have
multiple sites and it does not cause anyproblems with IGS I would
corrdinate it.  

My major concern that I have in this is being placed in the middle of what
is  going on and that possiblity that you may become angry and throw all
of us out.

Thank you for your time and conseration on this subject and help you could
provide will be greatly appreciated,
**************************************************************************
******
TWEET'S RESPONSE

The IGS Go Ladder matches should be played on IGS.

**************************************************************************
***********8
MY LETTER TO LADDER MEMBERS

It appears that my decision to keep the ladder games sole on IGS has cause
some people to leave the ladder.  

One Stated:

"Tweet's imperious behavour has gone far enough.  To hell w/ him and his 
dictatorial, petty, immature ways----it should be NONE of his business how
 the ladder is run.  Personally, i think u should tell him that the ladder
is ur responsibility and that ur question is really more a matter of
whether or not the igs still wants to be a part of  the ladder.  I realize
ur reasons not to do this, however, the longer such behaviour is
sanctioned, the longer it will continue."

I would like to assure everyone that this decision was not made lightly on
my part.  Last night i had a long phone conversation with tweet.  I have
also checked with other sources and I assure you that alot of what is said
about
tweet is untrue.

Also, tweet informed me that he did not just make the statement is was a
long thought out decsion and that he also consulted with other people
(some even on the ladder) before he made it.

As you know there are always two and sometimes even more sides to a
argument.

I wish to make my postion clear in this.  I stand behind any system
adminstrator and the decsions they make.  If a site or person is banned it
is as a last resort and not done on a whim.  Just because tweet has not
chosen to defend himself does not mean that eveything that is said about
him is true.

**************************************************************************
*****************
EMAIL FROM LADDER MEMBERS

Tweet's imperious behaviour has gone far enough.  To hell w/ him and his
dictatorial, petty, immature ways----it should be
NONE of his business how the ladder is run.  Personally, i think u should
tell him that the ladder is ur responsibility and that ur question is
really more a matter of whether or not the igs still wants to be a part of
 the ladder. I realize ur reasons not to do this, however, the longer such
behaviour is sanctioned, the longer it will continue.

******************************************************************
EMAIL FROM GEEK
 
Did you talk to evanb about this at all?

[excerpt from tweets post on rec.games.go today]

9. All ladder games shall be be played on IGS.

You have turned this into a political issue.

Plus, pulling tromp off of it will create a lot of backlash against tweet,
you are probably going to get caught up in it.

I guess I am a little more than just disappointed in the way these people
on the ladder are being treated like pawns in tweets game.
**************************************************************************
**
EMAIL MESSAGE FROM ANOTHER LADDER MEMBER

It was a sad day for me when John Tromp, whom I only know to be an honest
and honorable person, was banned from IGS for helping geek create another
IGS.

Regardless of how honorably or dishonorably geek has behaved in
hisrelations with tweet his effort to create another Go server (and a
freely distributable one at that) can only be good for the go playing
community.  To punish John for assisting in this effort seems wrong tome.

In any event, "to ban or not to ban" is a decision to be made by IGS
administrators.  This is something over which the Go ladder has no power
but to say that all ladder games must be played on IGS is essentially to
agree with each and every IGS banning.

I don't agree with banning John from IGS (how could I -- I haven't seen
any testimony, hearsay or otherwise, against John) and I'm even more
disappointed at the stand the Go ladder has taken.

Perhaps John Tromp has done something that merits banning but if the IGS
is going to ban someone whom many IGSers hold in high esteem I think IGS
should offer some explanation.

I can not in good conscience participate in the IGS Ladder when it
condones the banning of people from IGS for no other *apparent* reason
than associating with someone whom an IGS administrator has a personal
grudge against.

Please remove my name from the IGS ladder
**************************************************************************
*******************
EMAIL FROM GEEK ABOUT THE MESSAGE TO LADDER MEMBERS
  
This is _EVEN WORSE_!

You are now calling tromp a liar!

I find that to be *VERY* insulting.

Who else did you talk to before making this decision?  

Sounds like tweet brainwashed you.

Sorry, but I really feel that way.  :(

You make claims in this that "What is said about tweet is untrue".  Well, 
my friend, don't cross tweet.  Don't have a difference of opinion.  He
will screw you to the wall the first chance he has.  He expects you to be
his  yes-man in everything he does.  

By sending notes like this to ladder participants, you are stabbing a lot
of people in the back with the contents.  

Yes, I am trying to make you feel guilty.  You _should_ feel guilty.
**************************************************************************
***************************************
MY RESPONSE TO GEEK

Geek I think you are placing words into my mouth here.  I did not call
tromp a
liar.  I only stated and i quote "I assure you that alot of what is said
about 
tweet is untrue."  Now I did not mention that everything said is untrue!

> I find that to be *VERY* insulting.

I am sorry that I unsulted you, but I am calling it how I see it.

> Sounds like tweet brainwashed you.

I did not talk to just tweet and your message sounds more like an attempt
at  it.  Also,  If the military could not do it in six years, I do not
think tweet could.

> You make claims in this that "What is said about tweet is untrue". 
Well, my friend, don't cross tweet.  Don't have a difference of opinion. 
He will screw you to the wall the first chance he has.  He expects you to
be his  yes-man in everything he does.  

I will take my chances with tweet.  Also, as those people who really do
know me know, I am **********NO YES MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!********* 

> By sending notes like this to ladder participants, you are stabbing a
lot of people in the back with the contents.  

I am sorry if people feel this way.  But after addtional reflection, I
will  not handle the logistics of running the ladder accross two servers.
 
> Yes, I am trying to make you feel guilty.  You _should_ feel guilty.

Sound like an attempt at brainwashing to me and I do not feel guilty!!!!
So do not even try in the future.
Terry Tozer