Fm: Dave G. 
To: Rich B. 

Rich,

>>And it's not so much that it was a note, but that I was in a really
illogical state of mind, almost desperate to make the connection to her...<<

Sure, you probably were desperate.  Believe me, I've known that feeling.  You
desperately want to reach out and connect with someone, but you get frustrated
because you don't know the best way to do so, or you just can't bring yourself
up to do so.  These are tough feelings, and the best way to overcome them is
to take things slowly. Instead of a heavy letter where you spill your guts,
wouldn't a drink after work be easier? <s>

>>A *different* note might have made a world of difference.  Maybe something
along the lines of: <<

I disagree, I really think any type of note would be counterproductive.  Even
some of the things in your "improved" letter might scare her off, and cast you
in a poor light.  You mentioned your shyness and lack of confidence. Why do
you have to point out something that is (in your mind) negative about
yourself?  Sure, after you have gotten together, it would be very appropriate
to bring these topics up.  But by then, she would probably say "I can't
believe it, you seemed so confident when you asked me for coffee". Well, maybe
I'm dreaming just a little, but I've had similar comments made to me. Remember
there are two sides to you.  One, a confident person who wants to go out with
her, and the other a shy person who is uncomfortable with asking. Once you get
the nerve up to ask her (side one), don't dilute it by allowing side two to
rear it's ugly head. <s>

>>This situation triggered some really stupid reactions on my part...<<

Such as?

>>In either case, I AM trying to fight the pessimistic assumptions - which is
where I think the difference lies.  Four months ago, I would have been
*certain* that the frowns were because of me - if that's now only 50%, isn't
that an improvement?<<

YES!!!!!  That *is* an improvement, and I hope you are giving yourself lots
and lots of credit for coming so far.  <s>

>>A smile is fairly directional, though - very little chance to misinterpret
(and she gave me a great one yesterday!).<<

So, are you focusing on the frowns of the past, or the *GREAT *BIG* smile you
got yesterday? (if you say the frowns, I'm going to deck you <g>)

Take care

Dave :-{>

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Dave G. 

>>But by then, she would probably say "I can't believe it, you seemed so
confident when you asked me for coffee".<<

>>Once you get the nerve up to ask her (side one), don't dilute it by allowing
side two to rear it's ugly head. <s><<

Dave, you're assuming I *could have* gathered the nerve to ask her for coffee,
when I couldn't gather the nerve to ask her to dance when we were at a party
with a dance floor and music playing!  If I could have done the latter to
begin with, there would have been NO need for the note!

>>So, are you focusing on the frowns of the past, or the *GREAT *BIG* smile
you got yesterday? (if you say the frowns, I'm going to deck you <g>)<<

The smiles of present days are going a LONG way towards erasing the frowns of
past months...

Oh, it wasn't a *BIG* smile Tuesday - just a quick one when we bumped into
each other at the door to one of the managers' offices. I was on my way out,
she on her way in and was blocking the door slightly.  Our eyes met, I smiled,
she smiled in direct response to mine.  Felt good to get *her* to smile,
rather than her getting me to, though.

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Dave G. 
To: Rich B. 

Rich,

>>Dave, you're assuming I *could have* gathered the nerve to ask her for
coffee, when I couldn't gather the nerve to ask her to dance...<<

I guess we each place emphasis on different events.  I would find it easier to
ask her for coffee, than to ask her for a dance (more intimate).  But, that's
just me. <s>

>>Oh, it wasn't a *BIG* smile Tuesday - just a quick one when we bumped into
each other at the door to one of the managers' offices.<<

Way to go Rich!  If you can't win her with a love letter, run her over.
<G,D,R,VVVF>

Take care,

Dave :-{>

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Dave G. 

>>I guess we each place emphasis on different events.  I would find it easier
to ask her for coffee, than to ask her for a dance (more intimate). But,
that's just me. <s><<

Yes, but a request to dance isn't that unusual in that situation, and IS
something we've done before, several times over the years, although she
usually asked.  And it's not like there's a place real close by work where
people go to lunch or for coffee on a casual basis - we're in an office park
in the suburbs.  Lunch is either take-out or from a catering truck that runs a
circuit through the various office parks in the area.  Going out to a sit-down
lunch isn't quite a *big deal*, but not run-of-the-mill, either....  And
nobody goes out for coffee...

>>Way to go Rich!  If you can't win her with a love letter, run her over.
<G,D,R,VVVF><<

Very funny.  No physical contact actually happened, so I guess "bumped into"
is inaccurate.  And I'm not making further attempts to "win her" at this point
(probably never again), just trying to get back to at least the level of
friendship we had before all this happened.

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Steve L. 
To: Rich B. 

Hi Rich,

I've been lurking around and reading your post and their responses.  I know
how you feel.  I'm a 24 year old shy virgin myself.

>>A) I'm too repulsive for words and no women are interested
  B) Some women are interested in me, but haven't made a move
  C) Some women have made moves, but I'm oblivious to them for some reason<<

I'm more like B&C above.  Lately it seems like there are hardly any available
women out there.  I currently have an interest in one.  I've asked her out
several times and still trying to get her to go out with me.  She hasn't said
no and we do discuss what we should do when we do go out.  I guess it's just a
matter of coordinating schedules.  I find it hard to meet women, especially
single women.  I do join clubs and other organizations, but for my luck there
are no women involved.

(Picking out excerpts from other posts)

>>   Is it perhaps not so much that I don't see the signals, as that I ignore
them?<<

What are the signals?  Maybe we just don't realize them.

Anyway Rich,  Thanks for posting the initial post.  It has been an interesting
one.

Regards,

Steve

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Steve L. 

Steve,

>> Lately it seems like there are hardly any available women out there. <<

     <g>  Just remove the letters "w" and "o" and you'll be hearing what
almost every single woman is saying!  Ergo, the problem is in us and our
perceptions.  You are out there; we are out there; we're just not getting
together.

Polly

Fm: Rich B. 
To: :: Polly :: 

>>Ergo, the problem is in us and our perceptions.  You are out there; we are
out there; we're just not getting together.<<

Might it be a problem of expectations, as well?  That we're looking for people
who just aren't there to be found, and ignoring those who are?

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Rich B. 

Rich,

     Expectations?  Yes, I think that you might be right.  One of the
wonderful things about this place is that we meet the person inside first. In
the 3D world, that person is hidden behind all kinds of things, physical
appearance, the setting, the masks we set up for our own protection.  It's
awfully hard to discern just who might really be behind all that.  Perhaps we
need to do more careful looking to see who is *really* there?

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: Rich B. 
To: :: Polly :: 

>>It's awfully hard to discern just who might really be behind all that.
Perhaps we need to do more careful looking to see who is *really* there?<<

It's probably easier to do if you take a longer period of time to get to know
them before making a definite decision one way or another.  There seems to be
this assumption that people will "just know" right from the beginning of a
relationship whether the other person is right or not...

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Ken L 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,

You have hit it right on the nail. I have always wondered how people could get
to see the real me first. Because of my shyness, I seem to hide behind a wall,
and this sort of front also seems to stop people getting near me. By the time
I do get to know someone, then the moment is lost and that seems to be that.

When I do know someone, then I feel a lot more comfatable. But the shyness
does not stop here. When I am repling to a new person here, I do feel shy. I
do wonder if I am making the right reply etc. And on many occasions, I have
stopped and scrapped the reply, waiting for a better time to make it.

Hugs

Ken.

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Ken L 

Ken,

>> When I am repling to a new person here, I do feel shy. I do wonder if I am
making the right reply etc. <<

     I think that we all know that feeling. <smile>  It took me *weeks* of
reading messages before I dared post a reply, and then it wasn't even about
myself, it was about my children!  For me, it got a lot better as I realized
that I wasn't going to be flamed (except occasionally) and that most people
genuinely wanted to hear what I said.   That has carried offline, too.  Are
you more confident than you used to be about posting?  Has it changed your
feelings offline at all?

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: Ken L 
To: :: Polly :: 

Dear Polly,

<<Are you more confident than you used to be about posting?  Has it changed
your feelings offline at all?>>

Yes, I can post to a lot easier to this section than I did before, but I
suppose it is because I know a lot of the people who I am writing to.
Therefore I don't have to think of new people and that does make it very easy.
Also, as I said, no-one does any serious flaming here and that is reassuring.
OK, I have been warned by you about calling women, women and not ladies or
girls, but even that was done very kindly by yourself. (Even if I did get in
trouble for it. Rika, gave me a few whaps when I said to Marlaina that she was
not a Lady but a woman). I am still confused about it, but accept that women
can be what they want to be at any time of the day!<g>

Off-line, well, I suppose things are easier, but there has been no cure. I am
still very shy about meeting new people. That came to me when I started this
job in January. Now I know the people I can talk to them quite easy. But at
first, it was difficult. For the rest of the people in the building, I find
the old method of "Good Morning" a ice breaker, and this then builds up to a
chat later.
So I suppose that I do better during a conversation than I did before and am
not afraid as I was to express *my* feelings. I definately feel more confident
in myself, and that is solely due to HSX as a whole. But I think I will be in
this section for a long time, a very long time. Even after my shyness has
disappered forever<g>. (So long as you are here Polly<s>).

Hugs

Ken

Fm: Fred 
To: Rich B. 

Rich:

<< Might it be a problem of expectations, as well?  That we're all looking for
people who just aren't there to be found, and ignoring those who are? >>

Hmmm.  That's occured to me before, that I'm looking for *exactly* a certain
type of woman.  To make matters worse, I tend to discount (or "cross off")
someone immediately unless I see the potential for a good connection.  That's
a *lot* of crossing off going on, to be sure. <sigh>  (And Polly, Paula and
Eileen have all already jumped on me for doing so! <s>)

For me, the bigger problem is not that there are so many that I cross off, but
that there just aren't any around at *all*!  (This goes back to a discussion
we had a few months back about how nice it was to have such a large gene pool
in college.)

(I know I'm asking for trouble when I do this but . . . ) WHERE IN THE WORLD
HAVE ALL THE NICE, INTELLIGENT, SINGLE WOMEN GONE?!  Just thought I'd ask. <g>

But the "problem" remains: I can tell in a heartbeat if somebody clicks.  I've
been told to lower my standards, Rich.  I refuse.  Guess I'll just end up an
old dude with lots of cats who yells at the neighborhood kids for walking on
his lawn. <sigh>

- Fred

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Fred 

>>But the "problem" remains: I can tell in a heartbeat if somebody clicks.<<

Simple question:  When was the last time that someone *did* click, in the time
period that you're allowing each woman you meet now?

>>..about how nice it was to have such a large gene pool in college<<

Might another nice thing about college years have been the fact that you got
to know most of the women you dated well, long before dating them?

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Fred 
To: Rich B. 

Rich:

<< Simple question:  When was the last time that someone *did* click, in the
time period that you're allowing each woman you meet now? >>

No fair! <g> This is HSX! I'm not s'posed to be responsible for what I say!<g>

Honestly, you've brought up a good point.  Now that I think of it (duhhh!),
the "click" has always occured after at least several casual, no-pressure
meetings.  Hmmm.  You caught me.  And you taught me something, too. <s>

<< . . . another nice thing about college . . . been the fact that you got to
know most of the women you dated well, long before dating them? >>

Damn, you're good. <g>  True enough.  But the only situation that applies to
now is my company, and I've said it before (but will say it again): Dating
co-workers is madness.

- Fred

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Fred 

>>No fair! <g>  This is HSX!  I'm not s'posed to be responsible for what I
say! <g><<

What was I thinking? <g>

>>Damn, you're good. <g><<

Thanks.  I'm not bad at examining other people's situations, or even examining
mine in hindsight.  It's dealing with events as they happen that's trouble.

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Rich B. 

Rich,

     I'm so sorry that I missed the first flurry here, but you've gotten
wonderful advice from so many.  I hope you don't mind if I just add a few
observations.

     I've known you (I think) since you first joined HSX.  You've *always*
been friendly, kind, articulate, just exactly the kind of person any woman
would want to meet.  That's you; there is *nothing* wrong with you.  You're
wonderful the way you are.

     We all have our own stories (that's not my line, but it bears quoting
again and again).  Part of yours is that you have waited longer than many (and
I won't say most!) people to explore your sexuality.  That's fine, too. Just
think of all the other things that could have been in that part of the story!
This is a pretty nice chapter; just short. <g>

     You may have been oblivious, you may have been in the wrong place at the
wrong time.  There are a lot of possible explanations, but none of them really
matter.  My 12-step program?  It doesn't have twelve steps, it has three.
First decide what you want out of a relationship.  Second, get to know lots of
people and explore how you feel.  Third, when a relationship begins, remember
that you are wonderful just as you are and that *every* relationship is a
brand new one.  In a sense we are each virgins with each partner.  We all make
mistakes, we all decide the wrong things, but eventually most of us get it
right!

     Sounds easy, huh?  It isn't!

Hugs!

Polly

Fm: Rich B. 
To: :: Polly :: 

>>I've known you (I think) since you first joined HSX.  You've *always* been
friendly, kind, articulate, just exactly the kind of person any woman would
want to meet.  That's you; there is *nothing* wrong with you.  You're
wonderful the way you are.<<

Thank you.  I just need to translate it into offline actions more...

>>Just think of all the other things that could have been in that part of the
story!<<

I need only think of what *was* in the that part of the story - loneliness,
frustration, self-pity, envy, fear - to want to start a new chapter....

>>Sounds easy, huh?<<

Nope.

>>It isn't!<<

See? <g>

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Rika 
To: :: Polly :: 

Raff:

>>>   We all make mistakes, we all decide the wrong things, but eventually
most of us get it right! <<<

       Lady, you just made me feel a *whole* lot better. <s>  Thanks, sweetie.

                                Hugs,

                                        -Riff-

Fm: Jim T. 
To: Rich B. 

Hi Rich,

I've stopped by this forum from time to time, and up to this point I've never
felt compelled to join a discussion before. But your message really struck a
chord. It took a lot of courage for you to post it - way more than I would've
had. Good job!!

I was a virgin until age 30. At that point I got involved in my first serious
relationship with a woman, and had my first sexual experiences with her. We
dated for about six months. Since then (I'm thirty-six now), for various
reasons, I haven't managed to find another serious relationship. So even
though it's been awhile since I was a virgin, I'm really only a step or two
ahead of you on this winding, uphill path.

I can't tell you how much I relate to the type of experiences you've shared.
This is my main reason for responding, because even though I'm still grappling
with many of them myself (I still consider myself pretty screwed up), I _can_
report, from just the other side of the intimate relationship/virginity
hurdle, that at least some of the fears you've expressed are really nothing to
worry about! And believe me, I had agonized over them for a long time as well.

I'm not sure where to start here - having trouble organizing my thoughts
tonight - forgive me if this is a little disjointed.

I guess the turning point for me, which allowed me to achieve at least this
one relationship, was professional psychological counseling. You see, I've had
trouble maintaining close relationships with people in general, & women in
particular, since I was a kid. I've never really had any close friends. I went
through treatment for drugs & alcohol at age 23, and although this was a
tremendous help, it really only taught me how to deal with what I now see were
just symptoms of more fundamental problems. And although I give full credit to
my rehab experience and the subsequent support groups for saving my life and
teaching me how to stay sober, I'm afraid there are certain spiritual aspects
of these programs that I just can't relate to (trust me - I tried and tried
for many years!), which has limited their ability to help me further.

Anyway - during my mid-to-late twenties I started to feel more & more
hopeless, to the point where I had pretty much decided that If I was still a
virgin at age 30, I would kill myself. I knew that sexual experience wasn't
the be all & end all of life, but it seemed like _nothing_ was going to ever
change in my life, so the virginity thing was as good an indicator as any.
Besides, I was a healthy male with a normal ego/sex drive, and by that time
the sex thing WAS getting pretty goddamned important, as I'm sure you'll
agree!!

Well, by about age 29 I was pretty messed up! I started having anxiety
attacks, which scared the hell out of me & resulted in my getting into a
psychological therapy group at the local mental health center. Apparently the
folks there were able to draw me out of my shell at least temporarily, because
after a month or two or three, I actually summoned enough courage to ask a
girl for a date for essentially the first time in my life. Only one problem
though - she was a recent member of the therapy group!! As I look back on that
now, the only thing I can say is, "What the hell was I thinking?!" Hee hee!
But hey, she seemed like a nice enough gal, y'know? And by god she said YES!
But of course, this was doomed to failure - after two or three awkward dates,
and one VERY awkward kiss on the couch at my place, weird things started
happening. I began to think she wasn't really interested in me, that maybe she
just wanted to help me out a little - after all, she knew my case history from
the damn groups! Along with this (and because of it), I was still having some
periods of serious depression & moodiness. And sure enough, one night when I
called to ask her out she said, "Okay, I'll go out with you if you promise to
clean your apartment." Yikes! Now mind you, my apartment needed cleaning, but
that wasn't the point - she KNEW I was always procrastinating about it, and
feeling guilty, so she was trying in her well-meaning but strange little way
to help me make some personal progress via some sort of behavior/award thing.
Of course I was aghast at the thought of this person dangling a carrot on a
stick in front of me like that, and I never called her back.

I'm sorry, this is way too much about me, and not enough about you. The reason
I'm relating the above story is just to let you know that my first "attempt",
like yours, was also not successful, albeit for different reasons; and my
first kiss was something I'd just as soon forget, it was very embarrassing.

After this, I was in pretty bad shape for awhile. My 30th birthday was NOT a
happy occasion. To make a long story short, I discovered that I don't have the
guts to kill myself, at least not sober; and apparently I have too much pride
in my sobriety (even though that's not the point of staying sober) to trash it
just so I can off myself. I know that sounds ridiculous, but that's how I
feel, I guess.

But wait - this story does get mostly better. Only problem is, it's 1:30 AM
now, and I have got to get some sleep or my ulcer is gonna start bleeding
again. I'll be back tomorrow to finish it, and try to summarize what I think
any of these ramblings could possibly have to do with your situation.

Again, thanks for your message(s), and hang in there dude!!

       Jim

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Jim T. 

>>I'm not sure where to start here - having trouble organizing my thoughts
tonight - forgive me if this is a little disjointed.<<

I know all about having my thoughts feel scrambled - believe me!

>>Well, by about age 29 I was pretty messed up!<<

Where we seem to differ is that I've generally been very stable all my life,
just not very confident in my social skills, and even less so when it comes to
women.  I don't have a drinking problem (although I do drink), haven't had a
problem with any other drugs (a little pot now and then, but not regularly),
and am fairly successful in my career.  Lack of social confidence is really
the only problem I see.

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Jim T. 
To: Rich B. 

Rich, Sorry about yesterday's long-winded post. As I read it back, it was very
self-indulgent. I guess I needed to unload a little. Actually, I can't really
add much to what's already been said.

I do share the perception that men are generally expected to be the aggressors
in initiating relationships (at least in our age group), although there are
always exceptions I guess.

When it came to my first kiss (not the botched one I mentioned, but the one
with the girl with whom I eventually became involved), I just told a little
fib to get through the first awkward moments. I said, "I'm a little rusty at
this." This was a MAJOR understatement! She was actually charmed by this
though, and it was smooth sailing from there. And remember, it takes two to
make a good kiss; and if it doesn't go as well as you'd hoped, don't worry too
much and don't blame yourself!

Anyway, good luck and take care...

       Jim

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Jim T. 

>>Rich, Sorry about yesterday's long-winded post. As I read it back, it was
very self-indulgent. I guess I needed to unload a little. Actually, I can't
really add much to what's already been said.<<

Don't worry about it.  Don't you think I worried about the same thing before I
posted that initial message?  I'm still stunned at the reaction - my current
count (prior to this message getting posted) is 155 messages in this thread in
less than three days! (I posted very early Sunday AM)

Every so often we *need* to indulge ourselves, to offload some of the stuff
that's bothering us.  I don't have *any* problem with you doing that here and
now - if that's not one of the main purposes for HSX overall, I don't know
what else is!

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Rika 
To: Ken L 

Ken:

        The beach here *is* wonderful, but there are MANY beaches to explore.
<s>  I'll NEVER pass up the opportunity to see the beaches of the world.  If I
have the time, money and opportunity, you can count on me to go beach hopping.
<g>

        Now, why the "reserved" hug?

                                -Rika-

Fm: Ken L 
To: Rika 

Dear Rika,

I hope that one day, you come to see me and see the beaches on England. I
don't know if they come up to your standard, but they have a beauty of their
own. When I visit Whitby, I just feel so luck to have come from that part of
the world.

As  for <<Now, why the "reserved" hug?>> It's not Sunday silly, and all my
Sundays are reserved for you<g>.

Hugs (Unreservedly)

Ken.

Fm: Jim P 
To: Ken L 

Ken,
  My only experience with English beaches was at a town called Skegness in
Lincolnshire.  I was eager to dip my feet into the North Sea for the first
time, but after wading some distance from shore was still up to my ankles in
sticky black mud at every step.  As I seemed to be the only one foolish enough
to be so engaged, I returned to shore, washed off my feet as best I could, and
consoled myself by eating a cup of periwinkles (the shellfish, not the
flowers!) that I purchased from a street vendor. Lovely town, anyway.  Maybe I
caught the beach on an off day! <g>

Fm: Rika 
To: Ken L 

Ken:

>>> I hope that one day, you come to see me and see the beaches on England. I
don't know if they come up to your standard, but they have a beauty of their
own. When I visit Whitby, I just feel so luck to have come from that part of
the world. <<<

        I can't imagine that there would be too many beaches with which I
would be disappointed.  It isn't the beach *itself* so much as it is the
*surroundings*.  One of the things I like so much about being out on the beach
is the fact that when one looks out over the ocean, it is virtually endless.
There aren't a whole lot of things in life that provide that sort of
perception, much less provide it at such a close range.  The stillness, the
calm, the openness, the sheer beauty of being next to the ocean is something
that I can't imagine never seeing now.  The only thing is, I'm kind of selfish
that way too -- I don't want the whole world coming in and crowding my beach.
<g>

>>> As  for <<Now, why the "reserved" hug?>> It's not Sunday silly, and all my
Sundays are reserved for you<g>. <<<

        Got it. <g>  OK, so when Sunday comes around, I can expect a GIGANTIC
hug?

                        -Rika-

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Rika 

>>There aren't a whole lot of things in life that provide that sort of
perception, much less provide it at such a close range.<<

Try stargazing.  Even if you're just watching the stars with bare eyes, if you
can conceive of the distances involved, of the time it took the light you're
seeing to reach you, you can't help but feel the immensity of it all....

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Rika 
To: Rich B. 

Rich:

>>> Try stargazing.  Even if you're just watching the stars with bare eyes, if
you can conceive of the distances involved, of the time it took the light
you're seeing to reach you, you can't help but feel the immensity of it
all.... <<<

        The timing of your message couldn't have been better! <s>  Last night
I was out on the patio and looked up.  Directly overhead was the big dipper.
It's funny . . . I've always had a tendency to watch the stars and see what 
was out there.  I usually could find the various constellations and even name
a few planets, given a little direction.  BUT, this is the *first* time I've
ever seen the dipper *right* above me.  And it seemed *so* close!!!!  <sigh>

                                -Rika-  

Fm: Steve L. 
To: :: Polly :: 

::Polly::,

>>   <g>  Just remove the letters "w" and "o" and you'll be hearing what
almost every single woman is saying!  Ergo, the problem is in us and our
perceptions.  You are out there; we are out there; we're just not getting
together. <<

Wonder why.  Is it because we are too busy at work or other activities and not
spending enough time to socialize?  Personally, I hardly ever meet any women
except through work.  And I'm not much at talking to strangers either; must be
that motherly advice I onced received many moons ago.

Steve

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Steve L. 

Steve,

>> Is it because we are too busy at work or other activities and not spending
enough time to socialize?  Personally, I hardly ever meet any women except
through work. <<

     No, I think it's not that we don't spend enough time socializing --
although that's bound to be a part of it.  I think it's more that we aren't
really looking for the right things.  As someone else is pointing out, a
decision that someone is attractive or unattractive might not be valid until
there's more than a surface impression to deal with.

     Then again, it *might* be your mother' fault! <g>

Polly

Fm: Rika 
To: Dave G. 

Dave:

>>>  >>Yeah, I'm beginning to think it might be wonderful too. <g><<

Hmmm... now you have *my* interest perked. <s> <<<

        Well, just that you seem like a *very* nice guy and as we've been
saying, a person can't have *too many* friends.  Not only that, but you're not
*that* far away, and I still don't know too many people down here.  Heck, the
Bay Area is a bit closer than SLC, UT. <g>  Besides, as I also told you, I've
been wanting to visit the SF area for some time now, and I'm in the road
hitting mood, so it's like the proverbial "killing two birds with one stone" .
. . I can do my road running *and* meet a new friend.  Make sense?

>>> I started to question your 6 hour estimate, but then I remembered who I'm
talking with. <g> <<<

        Yup. <g>  BUT, I goofed, I think.  I checked on the mileage and it
looks like it would be more like 7 hours.  So, if I strolled in around 1:00
AM, would the ritual still be going?

>>> And yes, there *IS* something symbolic about conducting secret rituals at
midnight.  I'm not sure about "witching hour" (can you shed any light on this
one?) but I do know it is *THE* best time to conduct initiations (much better
than during daylight hours). <g> <<<

        The "witching hour" is what I refer to as midnight.  I don't know why,
really -- it just seemed to fit.  I guess maybe because that's the time I used
to watch those silly B horror films when I was a kid. <g>

        Now, a question for you.  Why is that the best time to conduct
initiations as opposed to daylight hours?   I mean, there *is* something to be
said for seeing the "surroundings". <g>


Fm: Steve L. 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,

Sorry it took so long to reply.  Been busy.

>>   No, I think it's not that we don't spend enough time socializing --
although that's bound to be a part of it.  I think it's more that we aren't
really looking for the right things.  As someone else is pointing out, a
decision that someone is attractive or unattractive might not be valid until
there's more than a surface impression to deal with.<<

Socialize?  What's that?  Anyone seen the dictionary.  About the only time I
get to socialize is at work or when i'm with friends.  I don't really go out
and meet new people.  Maybe I'm just naturally anti-social?

Steve

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Steve L. 

Steve,

     I don't think that anyone is "naturally anti-social," do you?  It's a
matter of choices and definitions.  If you do things with friends, then I
would say that you are socializing.  Meeting new people isn't necessary to my
definition of a social life, though they do seem to appear when I'm out with
others.

Polly

Fm: Dave C. 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,

    PMFJI.  "Anti-social" is a bad way to think of things in most cases, so I
agree with you.  Introverted people...such as myself...find that contact with
other people, especially in large groups, tends to drain us of energy.  We
need time and space of our own, alone, to regain it.  Extroverts are just the
opposite.  We introverts AREN'T anti-social...we need human contact as much as
the next person...but we just can't handle it in mass quantities.

Dave

Fm: Terri G. 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,
i am 25 and never had a date or a boyfriend i went all thru my school
elementary included without any friends of any sort my only friends were my
animals and still are,i haven't made any friends here either not that i
haven't here people can't see what you look like i feel like it would be
easier.
i went thru all my life being called fido, rover  etc, in high school it was
worse i had to quit i couldn't take it any longer.
i couldn't even walk down the halls or anywere without the guys hollering hey
a fido where's your flea collar, rabies tag, fetch the bone etc the adults were
no better i quit and got my ged thru corrspondence courses and i work at home
when i go shopping i know people talk about me i feel there stares i wish i
had the money i would have  my face fixed i've been saving for years ,i really
hate what i see in the mirror every morning.
my parents always told me they wish i had been beautiful. i wish i had been to,
i tried a regular job but every one there included my boss made fun of me he
even made the comment one time since i am so ugly i must be a lesbian.
PMFJI but i had to get this off my chest
Terri 

Fm: Kevin 
To: Terri G. 

Terri:

<<<i  couldn't even walk down the halls or anywere without the guys hollering
hey a fido were's you fles coller ,rabies tag, fetcht the bone etc>>>

I had to put up with the same thing in school.  I couldn't walk anywhere in
the halls without somebody making some rude comment to me.  And then I would
go home and get the same thing from my mother.  Never leaving me alone or
letting me do something for myself I became so isolated that she became my
warden.

Hugs,

Kevin

Fm: Terri G. 
To: Kevin 

Kevin,
HUgs i now how that feels.
Hugs Terri 

Fm: Kevin 
To: Terri G. 

Terri:

Hugs for understanding!

Hugs,

Kevin

Fm: ROBERT A. 
To: Terri G. 

yes its the most trying time of my life to be a virgin these days when sex is
so free  

Fm: :: Scott M. :: 
To: ROBERT A. 

Hi Robert,

        Your life, your body, your decision!!  Don't let other people pressure
you into anything!!

        You will find yourself in a situation that will feel right, only then
and only when you feel right should you take that step!!  Don't feel
pressured, don't fell it is something to get over with.

        Have a great day and have fun on HSX;

                        -Scott-
PS:Keep on Smiling!!!

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Kevin 

Kevin,

     It sounds as if you got into a really destructive cycle with your mother.
<hug>  Did it rally start with the schoolchildren or with her?  How did you
manage to break away from her?

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: Mike C. 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

One of the nice things about HSX is that people get to know you on the inside
before they ever see the outside.  That can make all the difference in the
world when it comes to making friends and finding romance.  Relax.  People
here will simply accept you as you are, Terri.  Relax.  Make some friends.
This is a safe place.

Mike C.

Fm: Terri G. 
To: Mike C. 

Mike,
hugs thanks, it's really stupid a person judges you on your looks.
Hugs Terri 

Fm: Bryan F. 
To: Terri G. 

Terri

I read your message to Polly and felt the emotion you sent with it.  I think
many of us feel we are unattractive.  Nearly everyone I have ever met and
gotten to know has something about them that is "unattractive".

Tell me something more about yourself: What kind of work do you do?  What kind
of music do you like?  What's your favorite movie?

Or try some of the questions in the pen pals questionare.  Read mine.

Talk to me some more.

Bryan

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

     I apologize for the delay in answering.  At least the wonderful people
here have filled in for me with some very kind words. <smile>

     First, it really bothers me that you have had the kind of treatment you
have. <hug>  That happened to me when I was in junior high, and I know just
how painful it can be.  Who knows what is really behind it?  In my case, I
think it was because I got good grades *and* most importantly, because I
accepted the abuse (and it is abuse) the first few times it happened.  That
set a precedent which others just followed in the mindless way that kids do.

     I made things change quite consciously when I started high school.  It
was a new environment, and I realized that I had the opportunity to redefine
myself.  Though it was difficult at first, I "put on" the knowledge that I was
ok, and that none of the descriptions others used were accurate. Interestingly, 
the people around me agreed with my definition of myself!  It wasn't all roses, 
of course, but life certainly improved.

     In a new situation we each have this same opportunity.  As Mike pointed
out, is a good way to get started. And you have started!  I've seen you in
conference, and know what an interesting person you are. <smile>  Do you think
that you can carry some of the you that you are here offline?  It isn't a
dishonest thing to do at all -- as a matter of fact, it's probably the most
honest way to live.

     BTW, next time your parents tells you that they wish you had been
beautiful, point out to them that you are.  (And you *are*!!)

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: Terri G. 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,
 hugs And thanks.
i can't tell my parents anything my dad died 8 years ago and my mom 3 years
after that.
i only go out for groceries im trying to work up the courage to go to the
movies during the day, i almost do and then i decide not to. One of these days maybe.
Hugs Terri 

Fm: Dave G. 
To: Terri G. 

Hi Terri,

PMFJI...

>>i only go out for groceries im trying to work up the courage to go to the
movies during the day, i almost do and then i decide not to. <<

Believe me, I know how tough it is to do things solo.  However, I do find that
if I push myself, it usually turns out ok and in fact is easier than I
originally thought.  For example, this weekend I took a small trip by myself.
I even went to a nice restaurant on Saturday night (first time ever solo).
Looking back at the weekend, I had a *blast* and I can't wait to do it again.
Point being is that while it's very scary to try new thing on your own, you
shouldn't be discouraged.  However, you should probably start out small until
you are more comfortable, and a movie would fit the bill (but see one that's
been out awhile).  You will be surprised how many other people are also doing
things solo.  So even if you're alone, you're not alone. <s>

>>i can't tellmy parents anything my dad died 8 years ago and my mom 3 years
after that. <<

Someone mentioned recently that a great way of helping yourself deal with
issues is to write a letter to the person/people involved.  Even though your
parents aren't around anymore, you might find it helpful to do this.  I'm no
expert at this, so maybe the person who originally suggested it will jump in
with more details.

Take care,

Dave :-{>

Fm: :: Scott M. :: 
To: Dave G. 

Hi Dave.

        Great advice!!!  Your experience is a fine example of the small step
is the best step.  When we set a small goal we can move forward, it is the big
goals that look to hard to overcome!!!

        Taking the small steps, can lead to a big advance, but we have to do
it slowly.

        Have a great day and have fun on HSX;

                        -Scott-
PS:Keep on Smiling!!!

Fm: Terri G. 
To: Dave G. 

Dave
hugs thanks
hugs Terri 

Fm: Kevin 
To: :: Polly ::  

Polly:

<<<It sounds as if you got into a really destructive cycle with your mother.
<hug>  Did it rally start with the schoolchildren or with her?  How did you
manage to break away from her?>>>

Thanks for the <hug>!  <Hug> for you.

She set the pace by not allowing me to develop naturally.  She put restraints
to control who I was and how I did things.  As I went into teenage years, I
was still being forced to live with rules designed for 10 year olds and
younger.  She expected me to act like an adult but respond like a child to
her:  obidently and without question.  And with no skills to deal with people
the schoolchildren were able to take advatage of me.  Bully me into doing what
they wanted or just taunting me with whatever came to mind.  On into high
school I still responded like a little kid and I couldn't deal with anything
but just take it and hope the school day ended.  But then I would go home to
hide and she would be there to just lay into me for whatever was on her mind.

After graduation I said I had to go to work and that school would not work
out.  Considering how I barely graduated they decided to help me relocate for
the job.  But I was dependent on them for financial support for the first year
and when I was supporting myself I still didn't know how to deal with daily
needs and was regularly calling them.  I had relatives in the area who helped
but that was just more family control.  With the distance I began having
physical freedom but not emotional freedom.  When my parents divorced she
moved to the city where I live to live with someone.  This was about the time
I entered therapy to deal with stress problems after I lost a bid for a job I
wanted.  Slowly the truth came out and then one day I just stopped calling
her.  She didn't like calling me because I screened my calls on my answering
machine and she wanted me to answer if I was home.  She sent a few cards which
I ignored.  My father came to me and said that from his therapy he saw how I
had gotten the bottom of the barrel while growing up.  We began what has
become a good adult relationship.  He deals with me on an equal level.  After
stopping all communication with her she had no financial or leverage of any
kind to storm in at will.  It has been almost four years now.

Hugs,

Kevin

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie, no i haven't and i doubt i could leave the house to do it.
HUgs Terri 

Fm: annie 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,
<<no i haven't and i doubt i could leave the house to do it.>>

I wonder if there are any therapists who make house calls. Have you ever
looked into that?

annie

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie,
i had a really bad experience today, my cousin runs a small cafe and she got
me out of the house to help her out at the resturant. it went well for a while
until this man said i would give you a tip but i don't have a doggie biscut, i
left in tears it upset me so much. i could hear him as i was leaving "somebody
shut the cage it's getting away" i can't eat after seeing something that ugly
it looks like road kill.
i've even arranged to have my groceries delivered i don't think i want to
ever leave the house again.
Terri 

Fm: annie 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

What an awful experience! I don't blame you for not wanting to leave the
house, and I hope a little time will ease that wound. It makes you wonder how
a guy like that has been treated, to be so rude and hurtful towards others.

He must be stupid, too. I can't imagine why anyone would mess with someone in
a restaurant who has access to their food. I remember hearing stories about
how waiters/waitresses got "satisfaction" by hiding "foreign substances" in
the food of nasty patrons. But you're probably too nice to do that......aren't
you? <ggg>

annie

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie,
lol now that's an idea i hadn't thought of that.
plus i was always told to be nice to animals too,G>
my cousin only told the guy to get quite or get out.
but it still hurt, he probaly would have shut if i had  said something
eaqually nasty in return. maybe i need assertiveness training or something.
Hugs Terri 

Fm: annie 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

Another way to deal with the gentleman might be to carry a very heavy tray
filled with dishes and glasses (filled, hopefully, with various types of fruit
juice or anything that stains), walk right over to him, and fumble. (I'm sure
his leg was sticking out.) Accidents do happen, you know. If you were to be so
clumsy, you'd apologize profusely, I'm sure. <smile>

annie

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie
<g> i probably would, im really beggining to feel better about about all this.
hugs Terri 

Fm: annie 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

I'm glad. <smile> Jerks like that aren't worth the time we waste thinking
about them, but that's often more easily said than done.

But it sure is fun to fantasize about sweet revenge. <g>

annie

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie,
<g> it sure is, i could always make a voodo doll.
HUgs Terri 

Fm: annie 
To: Terri G. 

<U/l very sharp pins to Terri.>

annie 

Fm: Terri G. 
To: annie 

Annie,
thanks
hugs terri 

Fm: Rich B. 
To: Terri G. 

>>i had a really bad experience today, my cousin runs a small cafe and she
got me out of the house to help her out at the resturant. it went well for a
while until this man said<<

What was your cousin's reaction to all this?  I hope she kicked the jerk out
and told him to never come back!

Rich

See ya! (8->)

Fm: Terri G. 
To: Rich B. 

Rich,
she did tell him to get quite or go somewhere else all she said to me was
learn to get used to those kind of comments or ignore them.
Terri 

Fm: Rick Wyatt 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,
   My sister once said to me, "Life's too short to waste time with people who
don't like you."  Hell, only 43% of the population voted for President
Clinton.  You cousin was right about one thing, which is that if you're happy
with the way you look, screw what anybody else thinks or says.  If you're not
happy with the way you look, maybe there are things you can do to change it
(hair, makeup, lose weight or whatever).  If not, try to accept yourself as
you are.  These are lofty goals, I know, I struggle with them too (been trying
to lose the same 25 pounds for the last 20 years).

One last anecdote.  A few years ago I was taking college classes.  I hung
around a fairly attractive blond woman.  She wasn't very bright and I had
little in common with her.  One day she introduced me to a friend of hers, who
had bad skin, dull frizzy hair, skinny, etc. -- just very plain.  I thought to
myself, What an ugly woman.
But over the next couple of weeks I got to know her.  Each time I saw her she
looked better to me, until she started to actually look attractive.  This
happened last in the semester of my senior year.  We graduated and went our
separate ways. I regret that I didn't ask her out.  And to this day, when I
stumble upon my yearbook, I always seek her picture.  I gives me a warm
feeling to see her face.
I hope I see her at the reunion next year.  It really is inside that counts,
it's just that will live in a superficial society.

Keep you chin up.

Fm: Terri G. 
To: Rick Wyatt 

Rick,
thanks, sounds like you just described me<g> that is about what i look like a
very plain jane.
Hygs Terri 

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: Terri G. 

Terri,

     I'm catching up on messages and found yours about that utter creep.
<sigh>  Where do people like that come from??  I find it appalling that anyone
could act like that.  Even my fourth grader knows how stupid that kind of
teasing is!

     I like the way that you're applying humor to the situation.  It really
isn't worth any *serious* notice, is it?

Hugs,

Polly