18-Oct-93  19:45:08
Sb: Assertive in Public?
Fm: :: Paula E. :: 

I used to be very shy, but lately I've decided life is too short.  So now I am
more assertive, usually.  I still have trouble complaining in certain
situations, like with my cleaning lady.  I know this is a guilt thing: why can
I afford to have somebody clean my house?  So I let her get away with things
that bother me.

However, in restaurants or stores, I'm pretty assertive.  In fact, I'm the one
who gets the waiter's attention or sends cold food back.  My husband is
aggressive all day at work, but when we go out, he'd rather let me do the
domming.  <g>

I'd like to ask the men if it bothers you when a woman is assertive in public
places, or do you like it?  I found myself calling for the check the other day
when I was with a male friend, without thinking that maybe he'd like to do it.
Just habit!

Paula

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Dear Paula,

That's a good reason not to let shyness rule a life, that life is too short! I
like that philosophy. <smile> BTW I have the same problem with cleaning
ladies. I had one once and I never cleaned my appartment so well, as the days
before she came, so when she came, all I could ask her to do was cleaning the
windows and although she didn't do it perfectly, I paid and let her go. <g> So
far my experience with cleaning women. (hearing Steve Martin say "cleaning
woman" and see him go berserque <g>)

In fact, I'm a wimp when it comes to assertivenes in restaurants and I have a
hard time when going with my sister, who isn't shy at all when it comes to
these kind of things. That has more to do with the fact that I believe being a
waitor is the most terrible job there is in this galaxy. <g> They have to be
nice, keep their brains and walk their legs off and normaly get bad pay roll
and I'm thankful for every smile or proof of attention.

Generally, I like assertive women and I hope they are as assertive to me, when
I need my brain washed. <g> Among my friends here, asking for the bill is such
a usual thing to do, that it could well happen to you that you pay my bill and
I don't even especially thank you. <g> I'll just do it faster the next time.

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: :: Marc B. :: 

Marc,

Oh, you'll buy me lunch?  Great!  And I won't fight you for the check, at
least not the first time!  <g>

"Cleaning woman!  Cleaning woman!"  <giggle>  I think Steve Martin has the
same problem with them that you and I have.

I was a waitress for a while in college, and it was HELL!!!  I always overtip
now, for anything except really bad service.  Of course, I wish U.S.
restaurants would change to a service charge added policy as in Europe.  Less
demeaning, I think.

Oh, and I think you replied to my message about men crying, but I don't see
anything there!  <?>

Paula

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

That means, whatever happens on our first lunch, you will give me a second
chance, and if it's only to pay the bill? <g>

I think it was his mother that gave Martin that problem and it's one of my
favorite movies. At least once I understood why I watched all these serie noir
movies! <g>

We do have service charge added policy here, still most everybody tips, we
like to be generous when smoking those stinking swiss cigars. <g> (Not that i
smoke them, would I. <G>)

I'll repost the other message, dear!

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: :: Marc B. :: 

Marc,

I'm always confused in Europe about tipping.  OK, so I'm always confused in
Europe about EVERYTHING!  So, there's the service charge.  Then you tip on top
of that.  How much?  The guidebooks to Italy say just leave the change if
you're at an informal cafe'.  What about pricier places?

Here in New York, a lot of the fancier restaurants add a 20% service charge.
That seems pretty high, so I don't think anything more is expected.

Paula

Fm: Clifford C. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

 >> Here in New York, a lot of the fancier restaurants add a 20% service
 >> charge.

 But I thought that 20% also included 8.25% sales tax...  I work in Manhattan
 on the 'night shift' (5pm-12am).  When we order food from the local
 restaurants, we usually pay 20% above menu prices to cover tax _and_ tip.
 Have I been tipping too little?!

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: Clifford C. 

Clifford,

That 20% service charge is added on top of the tax in pricey restaurants.  If
you're ordering from a deli or Chinese takeout place, then 20% for tax and tip
is fine, I'd think.  You're paying the delivery person's tip, whereas in a
full-service restaurant, the 20% is split by the captain, waiters and busboys.

Paula

Fm: Clifford C. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

 >> That 20% service charge is added on top of the tax

 i didn't know that- I guess that shows how often I go out to the pricey
 restaurants, doesn't it? <g>

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

There's nothing to be confused about tipping in Europe, where it's included,
they don't expect tips from tourists. Of course, you could get more attention
if you don't stick to the image of a tourist and tip. <g>

In Italy, it's easy, what ever money is not paper is not worth a thing. <g> So
you can easily spend the change. I think as rule for a nice tip for good
service, the equivalent of one to two dollars is fine across Europe.

I agree, if they include 20% service charge, then they shouldn't expect a tip
and if the waiters don't earn enough, they should make a rebellion. <g>

Will you invite me to THAT restaurant??? <g>

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: :: Marc B. :: 

Marc,

I think tipping is a terrible thing anyway.  European waiters in good
restaurants seem to see their job as a profession, whereas here in the States,
it's a very low-status occupation and often performed amateurishly.

I hate tipping in general, especially in hair salons.  Do men tip there? You
have to pay up at the desk, then go back and find your stylist, slip him some
bills, then go track down the woman who washed your hair and tip HER. I'd much
rather just pay more up front and know that everybody was making a decent
living.

Paula

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

You're right. Especially if you go to the better restaurants, you'll meet some
of these professional waitors. They tell you very professionaly that they just
do everything you can ask for and they gladly add every single bit on the
bill. <g> But most of the people in that job ended up there, because of bad
luck. Here in Switzerland, a lot of waitors are foreigners and refugees. The
waitor of a restaurant that I frequent often was a journalist in Zaire.

I can't tell about hair salons, the guy that cuts my hair is his own boss.
He's the one that answer the phone when I call, he's the one that washes my
hair and he's the one that spends the money on my concerts. <g> Where you
live, Paula, are there only Salons? No independant folks running their own
small biz? Maybe you should look for that.

                      Multimegamediahugs, Paula! <g>

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: :: Marc B. :: 

Marc,

Around here, there are some barber shops where you don't tip the owner, but
women generally go to salons.  If you have the owner cut your hair, then you
don't tip him.  But you still need to tip the shampoo woman, since the owner
would *never* do the shampoo himself.  <g>

A friend gave me a birthday gift last year: a haircut at a fancy Manhattan
salon, one of those places where Jackie O. goes.  Well, since I didn't have to
do any paying or tipping, I relaxed!  It was fun being fussed over, and I did
get a terrific cut.  Was it worth $200?  I don't know!

I just got an awful cut from my regular guy a couple of weeks ago.  In fact,
when Polly saw me, the first words out of her mouth were, "You don't look
anything like your picture!"  <sigh>  He took off too much, and since I wasn't
wearing my contact lenses, I didn't notice it happening.  I feel like a shorn
lamb!

Have you ever had a terrible haircut that made you want to hide?

Paula

Fm: Charles S. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula:

I have no problems with women being assertive in public (or in private).

I have occasionally been with women, however, who have used "assertion" as a
way of avoidance of things they have done wrong themselves.  (Ie., they have
used others as "scapegoats" for problems that they are currently avoiding.)

I remember one dinner that I went to many years ago.  A woman ate part of her
food and then laid her knife and fork across the plate in the manner which
typically signifies one is done with their food (at least in the United
States).  The waitress came and took her plate away.  She was involved in a
conversation with someone else and was oblivious to everyone else
(particularly the waitress who she treated as a non-entity) and didn't notice
what had happened for a while.

When her attention did return and she found the plate missing, she could only
find it within herself to blame.  This was a "false" assertiveness.

I don't know whether the waitress asked her if she was done, or not --
certainly, it would have been best to have asked (though I suspect that this
particular woman wouldn't have heard the waitress anyway).  Still, I watched
most of this small drama and _I_ certainly saw no indication that she was
still working on her food (or _I_ would have stopped the waitress).

(I have heard others -- male and female -- specify something to serving people
and then get mad when the servers bring what they requested (as opposed to
what they THOUGHT they had asked for).  As a natural observer, I have paid
attention to a lot of human nature <smile>.)

A little off the main question.  Oh well.

Assertiveness is taking care of yourself.  I don't see any problems with women
or men taking care of themselves in public or private.  I prefer it.

Charles S.

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: Charles S. 

<<Assertiveness is taking care of yourself.>>

Charles, that's just right.  Assertiveness doesn't have to mean aggressive,
obnoxious behavior.  So often, I've found that simply speaking up, making
oneself known, is all it takes.  People will generally treat you the way you
treat them, although I've run into a few rude clerks in stores who did not
respond to politeness.

What do you do when somebody in a store or other service establishment is rude
to you?

Paula

Fm: Charles S. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula:

"What do you do when somebody in a store or other service establishment is
rude to you?"

Well, it may be a wimpout (I admit the possibility <smile>) but I just avoid
the store in the future.  If it appears to be an outstandingly obnoxious
person (that is, the other folks in the store or service establishment seem
friendly or helpful), then I MIGHT ask for a different server/assistant.

Charles S.

Fm: Stephen M. 
To: Charles S. 

Charles,

<<Well, it may be a wimpout (I admit the possibility <smile>) but I just avoid
the store in the future. >>>

Don't call it a wimpout.  You are being quietly assertive.  They just aren't
getting your business anymore.  Too bad.<s>

stef

Fm: Charles S. 
To: Stephen M. 

Stef:

Thanks for the kind words but I'm afraid that there are still wimp qualities
in my behaviour -- that is, I am avoiding conflict.  I have every "right" and
reason to make sure that I am treated in the manner that is in my, and the
store's, best long-term interest.  I am improving, however, and did persevere
recently at a store where they had lost a pair of pants that they were taking
up (they finally replaced the pants AND gave me a refund -- but it took a
month -- hard to justify in terms of cost-effectiveness <smile>).

I will agree that it is better to avoid a place that has been of bad quality
than to keep submitting oneself to such treatment <smile>.

Charles S.

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

>>What do you do when somebody in a store or other service establishment is
rude to you?<<

Paula,

I'll leave and will not come again!

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: Kevin 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula:

<<<I'd like to ask the men if it bothers you when a woman is assertive in
public places, or do you like it?  I found myself calling for the check the
other day when I was with a male friend, without thinking that maybe he'd like
to do it. Just habit!>>>

To me everyone has a right to speak up if they feel it is neccessary.  I am
not offended when a woman wants to take action on an issue.  To me is shows
they are willing to deal with things for themselves.  The only thing I get
bothered by, and this is with men and women, is when they start raising an
issue just to make a scene and hear their voice.

Kevin