#: 90276, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      All

Hi, folks!

I read a magazine article recently that told of a study conducted at George
Washington University.  A survey of 375 undergraduates uncovered a curious fact:
Shy people are highly susceptible to hay fever.  Extroverted students tested
during the study NEVER displayed the allergy.

The psychiatrist conducting the study believes that the olfactory system may
hold the key to this unusual phenomenon.  "The nose is an extension of the
brain," she says.  Reactions to novel situations are thought to be centered in
the limbic system, a part of the brain connected to the olfactory system.  The
same neural wiring that makes people uncomfortable in novel social situations
may also make their noses "uncomfortable" to certain physical stimuli.

If shyness were strictly psychological, researchers would expect to see a link
between shyness and other conditions known to be triggered by psychological
factors.  Since they can't find such a link, it seems that shyness may have a
physiological root, so the study says.

How about you?  As as shy person, do YOU suffer from hay fever (or other
allergies)?  What do you think of the possiblities that might result from
shyness having a physiological basis?  (I can just see it:  a "seldane" pill for
shyness!!)  <grin!>

Lana


#: 90442, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Sharyn <tv> 
To:      Lana M. 

Lana,
        I suffer from an allergy to Poison Oak, but never had a problem
with Hay Fever.  My mother, OTOH, who is quite extroverted, has a
long standing and somewhat severe allergy/hay fever problem.  Also
allergic to most animal dander.  My wife, also somewhat introverted,
does not have allergy problems.

Sharyn
  

#: 90645, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90442-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Sharyn <tv> 

Hi, Sharyn!

I know people on both sides of this, too -- non-shy people who have hay fever,
and shy people who have never had allergies.

Still, it is kinda interesting to think of the possibility of some part of
shyness being physically-based.  I know that my reactions to stressful social
situations manifest themselves as physical *symptoms* -- tense shoulders, sweaty
palms, shaking knees, rapid breathing, etc.  I may try to find out more about
the study.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 90448, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ed S.
To:      Lana M. 

Lana -

As a matter of fact, I DO have hay fever.  However, it didn't develop until my
early twenties, and I had been exhibiting shyness symptoms back to my mid-teens
. . .

- Ed


#: 90637, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90448-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Ed S.

Hi, Ed!

The article didn't give any specifics about the age at onset of allergies, age
at onset of shyness, etc.  I might try to do a little research to see if I can
find any further info on the study.

I've been shy almost all my life.  I developed hay fever when I was a child,
then grew out of it when I was in my 20s, and redeveloped it when I moved to 
the west coast 11 yrs ago (new flora, I suppose).  I've also developed allergic
asthma (can you believe it?  I'm allergic to *smog*! Looks like LA is out as a
potential domicile for me <grin!>) in the past 4 or 5 years.

I currently take Seldane for the hay fever, which works great without putting 
me to sleep.  I've only had 4 asthma attacks, so don't take anything regularly
for it.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 90484, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M. 

Lana,

I'm shy and have a mild case of hay fever (or some kind of allergy). I take an
over-the-counter allergy pill when it comes on - which can be often or seldom,
any time of the year. I have no idea what I'm allergic to. It's not my cats
because I had to board them for a few weeks once when I moved and the allergy
didn't go away.

Ken


#: 90641, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90484-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Ken K. 

Hi, Ken!

I'm not sure I go along totally with this theory, but it seemed like an 
interesting idea!  I, too, have hay fever.  I can remember taking medication 
for it as a child, then I seemed to outgrow it in my 20s.  Since I moved to CA
11 yrs ago, I've got it again, and I've narrowed down the culprit trees/plants
to a few that unfortunately "rotate" their blooming seasons.  The upshot is 
that I suffer sniffling, sneezing, and watery eyes most of the year.  After
years of OTC medications, I now take Seldane (no sleepiness!).

I, too, have cats, and have a mild allergy to them.  I just have to be careful
and not touch my face AT ALL after I've handled them.

I wonder what a "shyness pill" would *feel* like?  I mean, what would it feel
like to NOT be shy?  I can't even imagine it!

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91001, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90641-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M. 

Lana,

As to 'shyness pills'. You made me stop and think. I wonder if such a pill was
available whether I'd take them. I'm used to being shy and have set up my
lifestyle - being single, where I live, my work, my hobbies, my pets, personal
interactions, friends, and so much more - around my shyness. Taking shyness
pills would severely disrupt my life and I'm not sure it would be for the best.

I am currently secure in the belief that shyness is incurable. WAit, come to
think of it, there is a shyness pill, or at least a temporary cure. It's called
an overdose of alcohol. From experience, I don't advise it.

Ken


#: 91028, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91001-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Chris 
To:      Ken K.

I know what you mean about overdoses of alcohol. The only times that alcohol
"cured" my shyness I drank so much that I could'nt remember anything that
happened. I had to hear about it from other people.... And did I ever hear 
about it.... heh.


#: 91086, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91001-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Ken K.

Ken,

I sometimes think to myself that maybe alcohol might be the answer to my
shyness. I've been told that I should "loosen up" and "let myself go". Problem
is that I really don't drink. I may average one alcoholic drink each month, if
that much. If I have beer, for example, I fill up real quickly. Now that I 
think about it, the last alcholic drink I had was two rum and cokes and that 
was in April at an office party at the dog track.

But I think the major reasons I don't get drunk is one, I don't like the after
effects and two, if I need to get drunk to have a good time, then something is
definitely wrong.

Bob


#: 91136, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91001-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Ken K. 

Hi, Ken!

Now that I think about it, I tend to agree with you.  I have my entire life set
up to accommodate my shyness, I think.  My home is my proverbial castle 
(literally and figuratively), my most treasured moments are spent alone, even 
my work involves little "teamwork" (although it *does* involve me getting up in
front of groups of people and either teaching or facilitating discussions).  I
think if I were NOT shy, my whole set-up would have to change, and I'd probably
be rather uncomfortable.

Yes, alcohol can be a temporary "cure" for my shyness, but I usually end up
making an utter fool of myself.  The last time I "overindulged," I got into a
tequila shooters contest with my then-boss.  Turned out to be a "career limiting
move" on my part, since I won quite easily.  <grin!>

Cheers!!

Lana


#: 90552, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Chris 
To:      Lana M.

I never get hayfever. I thought there was a medication used in some cases to
treat shyness.


#: 90642, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90552-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Chris 

Hi, Chris!

Well, I'm not sure I totally agree with this theory, since I know some non-shy
people who have hayfever (my younger brother, for instance), and other shy
people, like you, who don't have allergies.

I've never heard of a pill to treat shyness, but it wouldn't surprise me if
there wasn't something on the prescription market to at least treat the symptoms
of it.  Perhaps one of our "resident" MDs knows the answer?

Is there a DR in the house??!??  <grin!>

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91027, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90642-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Chris 
To:      Lana M.

Hi.
   I think it would make things simpler if all shyness had physical causes. -
and not just being "in the mind". But I get the feeling its probably a 
combination of the two. Some people are probably born more likely to be shy.
Then depending on how they grow up....
     Bye.


#: 91087, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91027-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Chris

Chris,

I don't think shyness is so much a physical cause or "in the mind" but as you
ended your message, it depends "on how they grow up."

I really think environment and how your parents raised you and peers are what
causes shyness. For example, I can think of cases where my parents never 
allowed me to interact with my friends or potential friends. It's funny how you
can remember certain events. I remember one time when I was in grade school,
some people were going to ride their bicycles to the bowling alley. They asked
me to come along. My parents said no, that it was too dangerous. Well, needless
to say, I was subject to some ridicule from the other kids. These events, as
they accumulate, do have an effect over the years.

Bob


#: 91137, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91087-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

I'm sure that environment plays a part in shyness, but I also think that at
least part of it has a genetic or biological basis.

My younger brother and I are very much alike -- we look alike, we both did well
in school, we're even now in the same profession.  We're only 17 months apart,
and people used to mistake us for twins when we were toddlers.  The only
difference between us is that I'm shy, and he isn't.  I've *always* been shy,
and he has *never* been shy.  I also have an older brother who isn't shy. 

My father was rather shy and introverted; my mother was extremely outgoing.  I
definitely take after my father's side of the family, in terms of looks and
"talents," but then so does my younger brother. My older brother, on the other
hand, takes after my mother's side of the family.  All three of us kids were
"overprotected" by our mother -- I can remember well her tirades with the
principal of the school we all attended, when she thought any of us was being
mistreated.  Also, my older brother and I were both ridiculed in school by the
other kids, him for being "dumb," me for being "too smart."  I took the 
ridicule very personally; he laughed it off.

Yet, I'm the only one in the family, besides my father, who is shy.

Who knows what causes it?  Perhaps it's different for everyone.  Certainly the
symptoms seem similar -- I've read descriptions here of how people feel 
(physical symptoms) that sound so familiar to me.  And all seem to be the same
symptoms I get when I'm *afraid* (the old "fight or flight" syndrome).

Ahh, well.  I doubt that this study will answer the question definitively.  And
since I don't have children, at least I don't have to worry about *possibly*
passing it along.  Of course, I'm gonna keep an eye on my niece and nephew (my
younger brother's kids)!  <grin!>

Cheers!

Lana


#: 90568, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

I have no allergies at all. My sister and father have hay fever and I wouldn't
consider them shy. And one of my best friends has hay fever, too, and she
certainly isn't shy.

So much for that theory <grin>!

But why not? They have a pill for everything else. Why not shyness?

<grin>

Bob


#: 90644, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90568-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

Well, like I said in another message, I'm not sure I totally agree with the
theory, but it IS an interesting concept.  I hope they continue to study this! 

I'm just wondering what it would feel like to NOT be shy??  I know how non-shy
people *act* -- but what does it feel like inside?  I couldn't imagine 
interracting with strangers _without_ the stiff shoulders, the sweaty palms, 
the butterflies in the stomach, the shaking knees.  I can put on a pretty good
act sometimes, but those inner feelings are always there!

Cheers!!

Lana


#: 90659, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90644-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

I also wonder what it would be like not to be shy or have any inhibitions. I 
see how some people are and wish I could be that way. Sometimes, I think to
myself, "Today, I'm going to do and say whatever I want and not worry what other
people will think. I'm not going to be bashful about asking for something. I
won't hesitate to talk to somebody."

Needless to say, I don't get too far past the thinking stage.

Bob


#: 91138, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90659-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

Yeah, I know what you mean.

There's a picnic on Sunday, put on by our local singles group.  I've attended
one of their events in the past, and they're all very nice people.  It should 
be a lot of fun.  I've told myself that I'm definitely going, that I'm gonna
march right up to at least three attractive men and introduce myself, that I'm
going to get to know at least three other women.

I've told myself all of this, and yet I still can't bring myself to call the
number listed in our local paper to find out where the blasted picnic is gonna
be held!  On Sunday, I'll probably be working my way through the "big city"
newspaper over some de-caf coffee and bagels!  <grin!>

Cheers!

Lana


#: 90651, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 90276-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d.
To:      Lana M.

Lana:

I suffer slightly from hay fever in the spring. I've never felt a desire to do
anything about it except pop an occasional allergy tablet. I've never felt more
extraverted as a result of taking an allergy tablet.

Since I've been participating in Shyness Workshop, we've had a discussion of
whether shyness is psychological or physiological. The consensus seemed to be
that everyone believes what they want to believe. I personally incline towards
the view that there is a definite physiological component to shyness. In Oliver
Sacks's book "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat," he discusses a shy woman
who became more extraverted as a result of minor nerve damage due to syphillis.
At least in this case, there is evidence that shyness has a physiological basis
and that a cure is to contract syphillis.  Perhaps shyness isn't so bad after
all. <g>

Fred 


#: 91261, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91028-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Chris 

Chris,

Worse yet, I can always remember everything quite well. And regret it all. I've
never done anything really terrible but oftimes things I would rather forget
about.

I quit that years ago. Mainly because I decided I would quit driving under the
influence while I was ahead - before I got arrested for it. I still enjoy a few
beers at home.

Ken


#: 91262, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91086-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Bob 

Bob,

Can't say I remember being advised to drink to loosen up, but it certainly works
for me. Not that I prefer that method though. I never drink anymore except at
home. That way I don't feel foolish the next day. Normally I'm very careful not
to embarrass myself, after a few drinks I couldn't care less.

I have a much larger capacity, my usual is 6 - 8 beers, about once a week. I'm
not a social drinker, I either drink a lot or nothing at all.

Trust me, excessive alcohol is NOT a good way to 'loosen up'.

Ken


#: 91387, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91262-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Ken K.

Ken,

I agree with you. Excessive alcohol isn't a good way to loosen up. I've only
considered it, but that thought doesn't last too long.

I only like the tastes of certain beers and mixed drinks and even with those I
fill up quickly.

Bob


#: 91263, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91136-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

I even choose a career to accommodate my shyness. At first I was an electronics
tech. I was chief engineer successively of several radio and TV stations, TV
Production studios, etc. Here my main job was repairing studio equipment,
interaction mostly with producers and directors. I generally had no staff or a
staff of one or two at the most. Even this became too much and I switched my
career field to author and computer programmer. As an author I interact only
with my word processor, agent, and editors. As a programmer I generally manage
to set up an intermediary between me and the program user so I have little
interaction.

My house is a castle too; out in the country on a large lot, chain link fence,
and two big, noisey, mean-looking dogs.

Generally I don't mind being alone; I like my own company and love to read. I
had better like it, I spend 99% of my time alone!

Ken


#: 91299, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91263-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d. 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken:

Your setup sounds ideal to me. As a matter of fact it's quite similar to
fantasies I've had. You say that you are an author. If's it's not probing too
much, what kind of stuff do you write? I'm also curious about your programming.
Apparently you can isolate yourself fron the "customer". Where I work this is
practically impossible; it's the more the merrier. How do you do this?

Fred 


#: 91497, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91299-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      fred d.

Fred,

I now write books on computer programs and languages. You know, how to use the
program or how to create programs in the language - both for beginners and
advanced. I've had about 14 books published, but it's been getting very slow 
the past few years. Currently I am doing a book on OOP (Object Oriented 
Programming) in Pascal. Previously I wrote about electronics, especially
production and broadcast audio and video, two books and many magazine articles.
Next dozens of computer magazine articles. Now computer books, as I mentioned.
I've played around with novels - fantasy - but either I lose interest or decide
it's terrible and junk it. Maybe some day - but there is a huge amount of
competition.

I have a few friends who are minor-league consultants and can't program. They
find out what the client needs, I write the program, they mark it up and supply
it to the user, do the install, and field questions and complaints. Ideal for
me. But business is pretty slow, most people find something off-the-shelf that
does what they want. Custom programming can get expensive.

Ken


#: 91563, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91497-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d. 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken:

You say that the computer book business is getting slow. Why is this? Is the
market getting saturated, or the users more sophisticated, or what?

Something I very curious about, and once again if this is probing too much 
don't bother to answer. It seems to me that if I attempted to do something like
you've done, my income would drop rather noticeably.  On the other hand, many
expenses would drop also. For example,  commuting expenses: gas, insurance, wear
and tear on car, etc. Thus,  the drop in income would be partially offset by the
drop in expenses. Do you have experience that would allow you to comment on
this?

Fred 


#: 91431, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91263-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Ken K. 

Hi, Ken!

I live on the outskirts of a small coastal town, in a "retirement" community (I
moved in before it was designated for those over 55, so I'm one of the younger
residents here).  The lots aren't very large, but the homes are nice (for the
most part).

I usually come home, and lock the door <grin!> -- more a symbolic gesture,
really, since the crime rate here is extremely low.  I'm surrounded by MY books,
MY records/CDs/tapes, MY plants, MY furniture, MY piano, MY cats, etc. etc. --
things I really enjoy.  I spend my at-home time alone most of the time.  I
occasionally have people over for dinner (I like to cook), but again, I'm in
control of how much off-work time I spend with others, and I like it that way.

That's one reason I don't think I'll ever be able to get married again -- you
immediately lose control over your solitude, and I'm not sure I could handle
that.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91498, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91431-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

Your lifestyle sounds something like mine, but I'm much more of a hermit. I
never invite anyone over for a meal, and very rarely for anything else. Any
visitors are someone who invites themself over (grammer??) - like once a year.
I'm a terrible cook, even my dogs aren't too thrilled with some of the mistakes
or leftovers (and they'll eat _anything_). The cats won't even taste my stuff,
they prefer dry cat food. I know why my cooking is so bad, I'm just not 
interested and don't pay attention to the cooking. Put it on the stove or in 
the oven, eat when ready (or as ready as it'll ever be <g>).

I used to live in an adult community - no age limit - just no kids. Sometimes I
wish I was back again. Even us hermits wish for a little friendly conversation
once in a while <g>. But there were a few annoying problems too - which is why I
moved out.

Ken


#: 91568, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91431-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Sharyn <tv> 
To:      Lana M. 

Lana,
        Get a free rocking chair for moving in?? <g>

Sharyn 


#: 91388, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91137-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Hiya, Lana!

(You know how long I've been trying to think of that phrase - fight or flight
syndrome? I've wanted to use it in some messages and I couldn't think of it
<grin>). Guess I was too shy to ask. <smile>

I look at my family and I don't see the shyness that could be passed along to
me. My father and my brother and sister (who are both older) aren't shy. If
anybody could be considered shy, it might be my mother, but I really don't think
so. And I have five nephews and nieces, none of them except one niece who really
exhibits any shyness. But she's too young to really tell for sure.

So who knows what causes it?

What symptoms are you talking about?

Bob


#: 91432, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91388-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

The physical symptoms I'm talking about are the sweaty palms, the knots in the
stomach, the tenseness in the neck/shoulder muscles, the shaking knees, the
elevated pulse rate (and blood pressure), rapid breathing (or sometimes a
feeling of breathlessness, bordering on hyperventilation), dry mouth, etc.

I get all the above, some to a greater degree than others, whenever I'm in an
uncomfortable social situation (uncomfortable being with a group of people 
where I know only one or two or none).  Most of the self-designated shy people
I've talked to also share these same symptoms, again some more than others. 

I mean, we're talkin' panic city here!  <grin!>

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91446, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91432-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Hi Lana!

Ohhhh...*those* symptoms <grin>. I get some of those, too. The sweatly palms,
especially the knot in the stomach, the tense muscles and the rapid pulse rate.

It's at its worse during the time leading of to the situation. Then it levels
off to a mild panic during the situation <grin>.

Bob


#: 91615, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91446-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

I, too, find the symptoms I experience during anticipation much worse than those
I feel during the actual "event" itself.  I think it probably has to do with
fear of the unknown.  I have a *very* active imagination <grin!> and usually 
run through a litany of "what if ..."s very rapidly, gradually psyching myself
into a near-anxiety-attack.

When I get to the event (*IF* I can force myself to go after the above!), I
usually find it's far less stressful than my wild imaginings.  Still 
uncomfortable, but much less HORRIBLE than I thought.

I wonder if other shy people experience worse symptoms in anticipation of an
event, with milder symptoms during the situation?

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91621, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91615-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Hiya, Lana!

I'm the same way. I run through all the "what ifs" too and fear the unknown! I
think I definitely feel worse symptoms in anticipation of the event most of the
time.

I just brought this up in another thread. I think the more we are prepared or
the more, in this case, we anticipate, even though it causes us anxiety, the
less severe the situation is when we actually experience it. Not that it can't
cause us distress while it's happening, but sometimes, it is less.

Bob


#: 91254, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91087-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Chris 
To:      Bob 

Bob, Environment must have a lot to do with shyness. But its hard for me to
believe that its the only cause, in my case anyway. My brothers and sister
are'nt shy. But I guess their environment was different, since they grew up
together, and I grew up alone 10 years later. I have similar memories, like in
the 2nd grade in elementary school, being punished for talking to the kids next
to me during class. The punishment was moving my seat assignment to in between
two girls, which at the time, seemed like cruel and unusual punishment (heh).
But then the same thing must happen to other kids who don't become shy.


#: 91389, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91254-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Chris

Chris,

You bring up a point which hits home with me.

I'm the third and last child - the proverbial "baby of the family". My sister
and brother are three years apart, and I'm nine years younger than my brother.
So, like you, I basically grew up alone in the house with my father and mother.
That also means a lot of baby sitters.

I think growing up like that might add to the shyness because you have no one
your age to grow up with. I talk about my nephews and nieces in another message.
One set is 9,7, and 3 years old. The other set is 5 and 1. I wonder what it 
will be like for them.

Bob


#: 91390, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91138-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Hi, Lana!

My apartment complex which is pretty big is having a pool/BBQ party or 
something in a few weeks. When I first saw the notice, I did like you said. I
told myself, I'll go and try to meet a few people. No chance. I didn't respond
and I won't go.

What do you do when you feel like you just got to get out of the house? I think
we've covered this in another thread or another section but I'm just curious?
(Not only Lana, but anybody else who cares to answer).

For me, this time of year, it's the driving range, or a movie or like yesterday,
I went to the horse races at Arlington Park by myself. (Won a whole $3.30
<grin>. But it was beautiful weather)

Bob


#: 91433, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91390-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Bob 

Hi, Bob!

Well, I did it!  I called, and got directions to the picnic.  I've got the
potluck salad that I said I'd bring in the 'fridge.  And since I've already 
said I'm coming, I *have* to show up. <grin!>  I only know 5 or 6 of the other
singles in this group, and I don't even know if they'll show up.  And I'm
sitting here saying to myself "WHY on earth are you doing this to yourself?
You're gonna be damned uncomfortable not knowing anyone!"  I've already planned
my "out" -- if it gets *too* bad, I'll just eat a bit of food, and quietly slip
away unnoticed.  <grin!>

What do I do when I feel like I just have to get out of the house?  Usually one
of two things:  I live within walking distance of a very nice beach, so I go 
for a walk on the beach.  OR I load up the RV, and head down to my favorite
campground in the mountains for a short weekend.  Obviously, the first is more
"spontaneous," the second requires a bit of planning.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91447, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91433-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Lana M.

Hi Lana!

Well, I'm glad for you that you called and are going to the picnic. I do hope
you have a good time. You'll let us all know, won't you? <smile>

I'm sure we as a group have discussed this before. But since you mentioned it,
I'll bring it up again <grin>. You said you have already planned an "out". I do
that, too, and it usually ends up with me quietly slipping away unnoticed.

As far as when you have to get out of the house - I also go for walks or
jog/walk. It's usually pretty quiet in the complex. So, I can do a few laps
around the inner drive and get lost in my thoughts.

Bob


#: 91193, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Lana M. 

Lana,

Until I was in my mid-thirties I suffered terribly from hayfever, but it ended
abruptly one August day.

I had just had surgery for a double hernia.  I sneezed ONCE, and I thought I was
going to die from the pain.  I did not allow myself to sneeze again for about 8
or 10 months--LITERALLY.  And the following summer, there was no more hayfever,
and it hasn't bothered me once since.

I would find it hard to believe that shyness is physiological.  It FEELS so
psychological!  Yet, if personality types are inborn (we had a big discussion 
on personality types here in the workshop a month or two ago) then perhaps
shyness, as an outgrowth of an inborn personality type, could be a kind of
combination of psychology and physiology. 

It's an interesting thought.  Have we been brainwashed into believing that what
might be a part of our body functions is instead due to a warped psychology?

As a young man, I knew I was shy, but I constantly tried to fight against it--
and I had hayfever.  Now I am at peace with myself.  I simply regard shyness as
my lifestyle, and I no longer have hayfever.  Does that mean anything?

Lana, do you have hayfever?

I can't believe that NO extroverts have hayfever.  I'll have to research that
myself.  Does anyone here know extroverts who have hayfever?

George


#: 91313, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91193-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Sharyn <tv> 
To:      :: George V. ::

Yeah George,
        My mother -- big time!!! (both hayfever and extroversion)

Sharyn 


#: 91391, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91193-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      :: George V. :: 

George,

My father and my sister both have hay fever (or used to, I don't recall them
talking about it that much anymore). But they both are extroverted.

Bob


#: 91434, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91193-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      :: George V. :: 

Hi, George!

Yes, indeed, I have hayfever (among other allergies).  But I also know some shy
people who have NO allergies at all, and some non-shy people who suffer 
terribly from hayfever.

You say that shyness FEELS so psychological, yet I definitely get physical
symptoms with mine: dry mouth, shaking knees, tenseness in neck and shoulders,
knots in the stomach, elevated pulse rate, etc.

It may be more coincidence that, as this study says, shy people suffer more from
hayfever than do their non-shy counterparts.  Who knows?  But I do often wonder
what it would feel like to NOT feel those very real physical symptoms when I'm
confronted with something that triggers my shyness.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 91738, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91563-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      fred d.

Fred,

The saturation is mostly caused by the many more computer book authors. Fiftenn
years ago, when I started, there were very few. Also, many publishers are
looking for books on such things as mainframe and mini software, which I have no
knowledge of. Another hot subject is programming for windows, which I never
taught myself. In other words, I just didn't keep up with the market, 
unfortunately. I'm getting lazy.

Being single, my expenses are low. My income comes from part-time teaching,
loans, computer consulting, custom programming, ghost writing, writing books,
magazine articles, stock dividends, rental income, investment interest, and
anything else that will bring in a buck. I own my home so my only monthly
expense is TV Cable and electricity. Somehow, I get by and even come out a
little ahead every year. Someday I'll have to keep track of income and expenses
and see how I survive. I have a truck and car, but again they are both paid for
so gas and insurance are the main expenses. I mostly use the car to drive to 
and from the office and stores. I don't care to travel. Thus lower income
doesn't cut car expenses. I never buy anything I can't afford to pay cash for;
this saves me a lot of interest expenses.

Ken


#: 91893, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91738-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d. 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken:

Regarding your comment: <<In other words, I just didn't keep up with the market,
unfortunately. I'm getting lazy>>

Being a techie type myself, I've noticed that it is sometimes possible to 
detect technology fads 2 or 3 years before they happen.  It was fairly clear,
for example, that OOP was going to get hot a couple of years before it actually
did. This was also true of the recent interest in artificial neural nets. In
corporate America,  where I work, it is almost impossible to exploit 
foreknowledge of what is going to happen because most corporations are reactive
rather than proactive. I would think that if you had good skills at technology
forecasting, coupled with being your own boss, you would be in an excellent
position to exploit the technologies when they became fashionable. To give a
specific example, what is going to replace OOP? If you could come up with a
credible answer to that, you could have a book ready when the fad hit.

Fred 


#: 92052, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91893-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      fred d.

Fred,

I hear you. But it's not that easy. Back in the early 70's I wrote an article on
word proccessing and sent it to the writer's magazines. (This was before PCs,
but WP was available at reasonable rates on time-sharing systems. I wrote all 
my stuff that way until I got a micro (Altair 8800) and wrote my own WP in
BASIC.) All turned it down saying "why send this to us? We're a writer's
magazine. Writers aren't interested in computers." Next - I tried to interest a
publisher in a book on C++ when it first came out. No takers. "it won't become
popular". "Just another language fad." And when 123 came out - "No, never heard
of Lotus. We might be interested in an umpteenth book on VisiCalc though." And
when I do get a publisher to do a break-thru book and it sells really well the
publisher goes bankrupt, taking most of my royalties which were owed me with
them. (Witness dilithium Press, about $50,000 down the drain). You can't win. I
can come up with a good idea once in a while but the publishers are _very_
conservative.

Negative thinking, right?

Ken


#: 92263, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92052-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d. 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken:

Sounds like you can do a good enough job of forecasting technology.   Maybe you
need to sharpen up your timing skills. There's a technology conference in my
local city that I have been attending this week.  About two years ago, a new
technique was developed in the field.  Sometime in the last six months to year,
this technique has "transferred" from the research community to the application
community. Several of the presenters at the conference talk about the technique
as if it were old hat. However, there are several publishers exhibiting their
books at the conference, none of whose books seem to discuss this technique.
Talk about an opportunity.

Fred 


#: 92322, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92263-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      fred d.

Fred,

Perhaps I should start going to conferences. I sure get enough brochures about
them in the mail. Also, others seem to get a lot out of them. Trouble is, I 
hate to travel, and money has been short for years. It's difficult to justify a
$500 or more expense for a few day conference, when I might not get anything
useful out of it.

Ken


#: 91741, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91615-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

I suspect that's true for most people. If you can't predict or control the
events, you tend to imagine the worst will happen. It very rarely does, but we
worry about it every time anyway.

However, here's a subject I've been thinking about bringing up. What about that
anxious feeling that occurs sometimes, when there is nothing to feel anxious
about - everything under control and nothing unpredictable or scary forthcoming
- no reason at all to be worried about anything? Or am I the only one that gets
these? Not a full-blown panic or anxiety attack, (which I never get), but just
that unpleasant queasy feeling in the pit of your stomach. I get these every 
few months, and they last for a week or longer. I hate them but can't figure out
what brings them on.

Ken


#: 91912, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91741-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Ken K.

Ken,

I get those anxious feelings, too, out of the blue. And damn if I know what
causes them. Maybe it's just subconscious thoughts and/or hidden anxieties?
Outwardly, you think everything is under control, but deep down is another
matter?

With me, they've never lasted a week. Maybe two days at the most.

Bob


#: 92053, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91912-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Bob 

Bob,

The same thought occurred to me about those anxiety spells. My subconscious is
getting even with me about something.

Wouldn't it be nice if a person could communicate with the subconsious? Now 
that would be a breakthrough! It would solve many of life's problems. I've 
never even heard of a technique for direct communication. Supposedly 
influencing the subconscious yes, like subliminal tapes and other techniques. In
all these thousands of years you'd think someone would have come up with
something, were it possible. Maybe the subconscious doesn't exist?

Ken


#: 92201, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92053-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      Ken K.

Ken,

Yep, it would be great if we could communicate with the subconscious. I would
have a thing or two to say to it! <grin>

I think it exists. I hate to think I'm consciously irrational <grin>.

Bob


#: 92233, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91741-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Ken K. 

Hi, Ken!

Well, I get those anxious feeling like you describe, and I know what causes
them, too! 

When things are going really well, when things are totally under control, I get
anxious BECAUSE things are going really well, etc.  It's a vague uneasiness, 
and I think it's because I'm semi-consciously worrying about what I *might* 
have forgotten, or else it's because I don't think I'm worthy of having things
totally under control, that I don't deserve to just "coast."  My usual line of
thinking, when I allow myself to consciously think about it, goes something 
like this:  "Things are going too good right now -- something really bad is
gonna happen 'cuz I know I've overlooked something important."

It's almost as if I'm not "comfortable" unless I've got something to worry
about, so when I *don't* have something to worry about, I get that queasy 
uneasy feeling.

I know, I know -- I'm terribly neurotic <grin!> but then, who isn't??

Cheers!

Lana


#: 92321, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92233-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

You may very well be right. Maybe not being worried is too rare a situation for
me. Thus I worry about not being properly worried about my immediate destiny.
Also, I'm convinced my subconscious has it in for me; and may just be trying to
annoy me.

Ken


#: 91683, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

My son's allergist told us something about allergy and cats.  We told the
allergist that the cats were here in the house all the time, but my son's
allergies only occurred at certain times of the year. 

He explained that the cats could cause a build up of potential allergic 
reaction.  During the non-allergy season, he could tolerate this build-up, but
during the season, the combination of his allergy to the cats plus his allergy
to other things made him suffer far more than he had to.  "Get rid of the cats,"
he ordered.  We finally banned the cats from the house and they lived happily
outdoors.  My son's allergic symptoms did improve somewhat.

Strangely enough, simultaneous with the cats' move outdoors, my wife developed a
severe allergy to cats which she never had before, but now is very strong.

George


#: 91740, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91683-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Well, perhaps I would not have had any allergic reactions during the apartment
hunting period even were the cats with me. At any rate, my allergy is very mild
and I love my cats and their companionship and want them inside with me. If I
didn't have the cats to talk to I'd have to talk to myself. Besides, if I left
them outside the two dogs would probably eat them!

Ken


#: 91684, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

Strange, alcohol has a reverse effect on me.  As soon as I begin to loosen up, I
begin to worry about what I might say or how I might make a fool of myself, and
I tend to clam up entirely.

Regarding the shyness pill, I think I agree.  Shyness is my lifestyle of choice.
I watch life-of-the-party extroverts, and I know I would NOT want to be like
that.

But I have, fairly recently, begun taking little excursions into non-shyness.  I
attribute a lot of this to Shyness Workshop.  I've said things I wouldn't
orginarily have said, and I find some people suddenly warming up to me.  Have
you ever tried this?  I'm happy with my shyness, but it's interesting to take a
little side-trip now and then.  Have you ever done something un-shy that takes
your friends by surprise (and maybe takes you by surprise too)?

George


#: 91739, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91684-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Nope. My friends find me _very_ predictable. I sometimes think about doing
something different, like joining a singles group or other interest group, or
even just going to a movie, but it never comes to anything. It's far too easy
to roll along in my rut. Also, it seems as though if I get very brave and try 
to get some sort of relationship going with a woman it always turns out badly.
It's always rejection or "Can't we just be friends?" or "I like you, but not
like that!" One of the latter just ended a month ago. Never again! Now my motto
is nothing ventured, nothing pained.

Ken


#: 91685, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob 

Bob,

I agree that a great deal of shyness is a result of upbringing and environment,
but most definitely there are genetic causes.  The personality characteristics
that we've been discussing here, Myers-Briggs and Enneagram...I suspect that
they are a lot more genetic than environmental.  My three kids, brought up in a
shy and introverted household, are far more outgoing and extroverted than 
either my wife or I. 

George


#: 91913, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91685-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 7
To:      :: George V. :: 

George,

Okay, confusion time again <grin>.

You say your three kids were brought up in a shy and introverted household are
more outgoing and extroverted than either you or your wife. Okay, given that, I
could see where you would think that environment (in this case, home) doesn't
play a role in shyness. But why would you think it's genetic?

Were you and your wife's parents extroverted? A case of generation skipping?

How old are your kids? Did they play with a lot of other kids when they were
young? Maybe that environment is why they're extroverted?

Bob (a lot of questions, but no answers) <grin>


#: 91978, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    fred d. 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken:

I sometimes get mild anxiety attacks somehat like you describe. I have concluded
that these attacks frequently correlate with being slightly under the weather. I
feel like I may be coming down with something, but I'm not REALLY sick. 
Apparently, my body is fighting off something. One possible side effect of this
seems to be mild anxiety attacks. Perhaps there's some sort of hormonal 
imbalance or something that causes the attack. When I feeling better, the
anxiety is gone. I'm not saying that this is the only cause, rather that it does
seem to be a cause in my case.

Fred 


#: 92054, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 91978-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      fred d.

Fred,

In my case I don't think there's a correlation. I know what you mean about 
those "I think I'm coming down with something" spells. But I get those very
rarely, maybe once a year, and they usually don't result in any illness. In
fact, I very rarely ever get sick - no colds or flu, not even an upset stomach
or sore throat. I get gout or arthritis once in a while but I don't count that.
Or my mild allergy. Or high blood pressure. Yet I get these anxiety spells 5 or
6 times a year.

Sounds like you have your occurrances pinned down though.

Ken


#: 92538, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

The "un-shy" things that I have said have been VERY small departures from my
normal manner.  I will just allow myself to make some little innuendo or
comment that I wouldn't ordinarily have allowed. 

I personally tend to agree with you that "nothing ventured, nothing pained". 
But I can't help but hope that someone gives you an argument.  I can't dispute
your attitude, but something in me tells me that it's not a healthy one. 

I think in another message, somewhere, I recently said "nothing ventured 
nothing lost."  But I'd hate to see you losing out on something good that might
be yours.  What do you think?

George


#: 92592, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92538-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

When the 'ventures' generally turn out badly, I get conditioned to avoid
venturing. Sure, I might miss out, but that's the chance I have to take. From
experience, missing out is unlikely. Even if something good results from a
venture, I usually manage to either misinterpret it until it's too late or 
react impulsively and blow the opportunity.

Ken


#: 92539, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

Actually I was just quoting what the allergist told me about cats.  I don't
necessarily believe him.  Allergists have told me all sorts of things that
haven't been true. 

Talking to cats is something I could never do.  I'm planning to start a seeder
on something like that if I ever get caught up.

George


#: 92899, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob 

Bob, and Chris,

Interesting that you both had siblings yet grew up almost alone.

I was an only child.  I'm shy.

My three kids were almost exactly two years apart.  None of them is shy.

My wife has two sisters, likewise two years apart.  Although she's not an
extrovert, she's not shy.

This does seem to follow a pattern, doesn't it.  Yet I'm not at all convinced
that being brought up alone is a determining factor in shyness. 

I also had two cousins, considerably older than me.  One was very warm and
outgoing, and the other was 100% shy.  They were close in age too.  I have a
"gut" feeling that shyness is a birth characteristic.  And according to the
Enneagram, I'm a gut person, so I must be right.

I'm planning to post a seeder in a couple of days to further confuse things.

George


#: 92900, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob  

Bob,

I can't recall *any* time that I felt I had to get out of the house!

George


#: 92901, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Lana M.  

Lana,

I used to experience those symptoms (sweaty palms, knot in the stomach, etc.)
until later in life when I recognized myself as a shy person "and proud of it".

I don't think I experience any of those any more.  If I can't think of 
something to say, or how to handle a social experience, I just keep quiet. 
There's no sense trying to be someone I'm not.  What a relief this has been!

I do experience all of them in certain work situations, though.  I used to have
to handle salary negotiations for prospective new employees, and I experienced
all of them, particularly the pre-interview worries.  Thank goodness my boss
handles those now.

But occasionally someone comes to me in a huff complaining about another
musician.  "I'm ready to walk out of here, George, if you don't do something to
stop this."  As far as I'm concerned, he means it and we can't afford to lose
him.  He's a good musician, so he could probably get another job anywhere. 

So I have to tackle the cantankerous person and I'll go through agonies before
the interview.  If he says this, how will I counter it?  If he says that, 
should I argue with him or just let him vent steam?  What if he threatens to
quit also? It is without a doubt the most unpleasant aspect of my job.

And there's a black woman who has managed to alienate just about everyone in 
the orchestra and now she's claiming discrimination.  The problem is that in
some instances she's correct, although overall, I disagree with her.  I feel I
have to watch every single word I say, and I sweat! 

I think I've been contradicting myself here, saying shyness is psychological 
one time and physical another.  I believe we are born with a tendency one way 
or the other.  Maybe it's just introverted or extroverted.  How we react to 
that tendency, I believe is a matter of childhood experiences.

George


#: 92902, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Sharyn <tv>  

Sharyn,

Yeah, I think maybe that college shoulda done the survey here.

George


#: 92903, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob  

Bob,

Yep, back to the drawing board for that college psychology team.

George


#: 93113, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

I used to have a lot of anxiety spells.  Most of the time there was a specific
cause, but sometimes they just 'happened'. 

I rarely have them any more, but I do once in a while.  A day or two after the
spell began, I suddenly feel a great sense of relief and of well-being. 
Recently, I've taken to trying to see what happened to bring about that blessed
change, and I realize that THAT was what I was worried about, even though I
didn't realize it.  I wonder how could I have been worried about such an
inconsequential little thing, but there's no doubt that that was it.  I am able
to pinpoint the time I suddenly felt relief. 

It must have been some interaction with my sub-conscious that that little thing
reminded me of.  Yes, I believe in a sub-conscious.

George


#: 93146, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 93113-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Would you run that by me again, please? I don't quite follow you about your
realization of what brought on the anxieties. This is important to me, as I'd
love to get rid of these annoying spells, or at least determine where they come
from.

Well, most days I believe in the subconscious, but sometimes I wonder. It seems
like someone should have figured out a way to communicate with it by now, 
unless you consider the ouija board contact with your subconscious, as some do.
(I only tried ouija once with others at a party, but the board wouldn't work if
I touched the platen.)

Ken


#: 93114, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob 

Bob,

<< Okay, confusion time again <grin>. >>

You're right.  It sure is confusing, and I think I'm confusing myself as much as
I am confusing you. 

I guess I believe that a personality type is inborn, therefore genetic. 
Definitely, upbringing and environment have an effect on behavior, but I think
it is something that is built on the pre-existing framework of the inborn
personality type.

But also, genetic does not by any means mean being like one's parents.  My wife
and I, and all of our parents, have dark brown hair.  Yet, one of my kids is
blond, and the other two have gorgeous RED hair.  Genes play funny tricks. 
(Both my wife and I have cousins who are red-headed).  Just watching my own 
kids develop, I am convinced that the biggest influence is the genetic makeup
they're born with.

My wife's mother was extrovert, but her father was a real introvert.  My 
parents were sort of borderline.  My mother loved people, but she was not
outgoing.  I think my father was really an introvert, but he put on a 
extroverted facade, which I hated, because he was a salesman.  My kids are 27,
29 and 31, and yes they played with other kids when they were young...but I
think they were already extroverts by that time.  When I was that age, I had
plenty of kids to play with, but I preferred to avoid them.

I had two older cousins.  When we visited them, one of them played with me,
chatted with my parents, and was very warm and outgoing.  I loved him.  His
brother would invariably spend the day in his own room, by himself, coming out
only for dinner.  As I look back at him, I see myself--to a T.

George


#: 93246, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92899-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Bob 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Well, I'm not convinced that shyness is something you're born with.

I still think it's more environment, how you're raised and the nature of your
interactions as you grow up. I think single incidents can also have an effect.
You mentioned one of your cousins who was 100% shy. Was this cousin always shy?

Bob


#: 93087, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 92901-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      :: George V. ::

Hi, George!

I *hate* having to "counsel" a difficult employee.  I agonize beforehand, 
afraid I'm going to say the wrong thing, or that the employee is going to 
argue.

I've been through at least 5 or 6 training programs on how to get through this,
and it's still about the most difficult thing for me to do at work.  Thank
heavens, I don't have to do it often (last time was about 5 yrs ago).

Cheers!

Lana


#: 93112, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K.  

Ken,

You're one of the very few people (maybe even the first) I've heard say, "I
never buy anything I can't afford to pay cash for."

When I was first on my own financially, I paid off a very high dentist's bill 
in installments.  And when we bought our home, my wife and I took a mortgage
because the mortgage interest was actually lower than the interest we were
getting from the bank (!).  Those were the only times in my life that I didn't
pay cash.  We paid cash for our second home, and for all of the cars we've
owned.

When I bought my last car, the sales manager took me aside, and showed me,
conclusively, that I would actually save money by buying the car in 
installments.  Although I knew it couldn't be true, his argument was so 
convincing that I had to come home and do it all on the computer before I
realized the facts that he was trying to get me to overlook.  I went back and
very angrily accused him of being a liar and a cheat.  I actually made quite a
scene, but he never confessed to being what I called him.  But he was!

What does it say about our personality types that we always pay in cash?  What
does it say about us as people?  It seems to be such an unusual thing to do.  Is
it possible to run a business efficiently without borrowing money?  I'm told
it's not.

George


#: 93148, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 93112-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Yes, I'm aware buying only for cash is unusual. But I hate to see most of my
friends (like the government) in debt up to their ears and paying a large
portion of their income in interest. One or two bad months or a financial
catastrophe (like having to replace the plumbing as I had to do a few weeks ago)
and they would be bankrupt. Few of my friends believe in putting anything away
for a 'rainy day'. Spend it before it gets moldy or something, I guess.

Of course when I was younger I bought on credit too, but I changed my ways 
about 20 years or more ago, after I became self-employed. With no regular income
I hated to take on monthly payments for anything. I run my business without
borrowed money, but keep it small - I don't want to get to the point where I
have to meet a payroll. That's as bad as monthly payments.

Well, I was once tempted to buy a car on credit when the interest was very low,
about 2% as I remember beck in '86. The money in a CD would have drawn more
interest than the interest I'd be paying, as in your example. Unfortunately I
couldn't do it because the model I bought (cheapest version of a Plymouth Colt)
wasn't covered by the low interest deal.

Ken


#: 93343, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Hari 
To:      Lana M.

Lana,

About the alergies == shyness thing,

I think the equation becomes a lot clearer if you think about the impact of an
alergy. It means you have trouble breathing or whatever. For example I have a
very slight propensity to have a tick in one of my eyelids.

Now normally these don't cause a problem. But suppose a stressful situation
shows up. The body is now pumped up. Adrenelin is flowing. Breathing is harder.
Control over facial muscles is weaker. ALL these little quirks come into view.
My eyelid starts twitching whenever I am feeling tired or stressed.

BUT, if you had something like hay fever, this could be serious business! For
you start having congested lungs and so in stressful situations you have 
trouble breathing - and become even more stressed out etc etc.

A heart murmur is one of those symptoms that inevitably causes major panic
attacks in people before it is diagnosed. For the same reason.

In fact, right now I have some blockage in my gullet, and initially it scared
me because it felt like my heart was in my throat each time I swallowed. Once I
identified the cause ... it became very easy to handle. But I was curious and
tried experiments. When relaxed, the sensations are much weaker and so not so
anxiety provoking. So when stressed, surely it would be quite bad.

hari


#: 93454, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 93343-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Lana M. 
To:      Hari

Hi, Hari!

Interesting point you brought up!  The article I read also made the point about
the cause/effect relationship between hay fever and shyness -- that perhaps shy
people avoided stressful social situations *because* of the effect on their
allergies.  The article indicated that the people conducting the study had 
tried to find a correlation to other stress-exacerbated physical symptoms, and
found no such connection.  In other words, both shy and non-shy people with
other types of physical symptoms reacted similarly in stressful situations.  
Hay fever seemed to be the only one that shy people manifested more than 
non-shy people.

Like I said to a couple of other folks here, I'm not sure I can buy everything
the article says.  My younger brother is definitely NOT shy, and has extremely
bad hay fever every spring.  I *do* think that shyness may have a genetic
component -- that the *potential* for shyness can be passed on (and either
mitigated or aggravated by environment) -- but I'm just not sure there's a real
generalization re: allergies.

Cheers!

Lana


#: 93545, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

How can I reply to your message?  I, personally, agree with you, and that is my
approach to relationships with other people.  Yet I'm sure that it's not a
healthy or constructive approach. 

The conflicting approach is one that my wife keeps reminding me of.  Never give
up.  If something doesn't work 99 times, it may (or may not) work the 100th
time, so it's worth trying.  I do use this approach to many things in life.
After all, a failure is no worse than what you've already experienced before.

Other than in dealing with personal relationships, do you ever adopt the "never
give up" approach in other phases of life and career?  If something you've
written is rejected by 25 publishers, do you keep trying or do you throw it in
the trash?

George


#: 93686, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 93545-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K. 
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

I generally give up easily. I've rarely felt anything was worth fighting for. If
a book doesn't sell I send out more ideas. Why fight city hall? The world is
full of good ideas for books, I just have to place the right one with the right
editor. BTW, I never write a book until I get a contract, or a magazine article
until I get a go-ahead from the editor. That way. I don't have all that much
time invested.

About the only thing I'll stick with is writing computer code, and then I am
quick to rewrite problem sections when things don't go well rather than try to
patch them up to work right. I have a program now where I've rewritten one
section of code, about four pages, at least five times. That's unusual. 
Normally it only takes one rewrite.

If I ask a woman for a date and she turns me down I'll try once more. Another
turndown and I never ask again.

Whenever possible I try to stick to trying things I know will work out ok, saves
much grief - but as you indicate, also takes a lot of excitment out of life.
Once in a while I get adventurous - and usually regret it.

Ken



#: 94319, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Ken K. 

Ken,

Re:  anxiety

For example, I wake up on the day of a concert, with a feeling of foreboding.
Everyone is at the rehearsal on time and the conductor is pleased with the way
everything goes.  The conductor is pleased with the substitute musician I hired.
During the afternoon  I attend a couple of staff meetings, and all goes well
there.  Before the concert I distribute a rehearsal/concert schedule to the
musicians for the next four weeks.  The concert goes well, but all through the
concert I still have the anxiety feeling.  After the concert I chat for a 
couple of minutes with the union steward about some possible irregularities in
the rehearsal schedule.  When I go back to my desk, I suddenly feel as though a
weight has been lifted from my shoulders. 

Why?  The concert?  No.  I try to figure out what was worrying me all day but
isn't any more.  Finally, I hit on it.  It was the irregularities in the
rehearsal schedule.  I was extremely worried that there were going to be major
complaints, but when the union steward told me he didn't see any problems, I
felt unburdened.  Compared to all of the things I COULD have been worried about,
the schedule irregularity seemed very small, but that WAS the one unresolved
thing that was eating at me. 

This is what I was trying to describe before.  Something very small, but 
causing me great feelings of insecurity, can cause an anxiety attack, and when
it is resolved, I feel great again.  When you have an anxiety attack, try to
think of all the little things, as well as the big things, that you are worried
about. You might hit on the answer.  I usually can't find it until it's over.

Looking back at my previous message I see it is very unclear indeed.  Does this
make it any clearer?

George


#: 94417, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: #: 94319-Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    Ken K.
To:      :: George V. ::

George,

Yes, much clearer. When I get those 'out of the blue' anxieties, I have yet to
ever discover what brought them on or what relieved me of them, either during 
or after the anxiety period. I guess I'll just have to put up with them, 
knowing they'll dissipate in a few days or a week. Glad you can pinpoint the
reasons for yours though.

Ken


#: 94333, S/8  Shyness Workshop
Subject: Shyness: Physical Basis?
From:    :: George V. :: 
To:      Bob 

Bob,

My "100% shy cousin" was ten or more years older than I was.  He was shy all 
the time I ever knew him.

Actually, I didn't realize it was shyness.  I thought he just disliked us all
and couldn't stand our company.  It wasn't until I found myself doing the same
thing later in life (slipping out of the room and escaping into my own den when
there was company) that I realized that he was really being shy.

George