AOH :: OFFIC2.TXT|
Sex in the Office! Can a Relationship Work?
Sex in the office! Men and women work together all the time; attraction is
inevitable. What are some of the implications of a relationship
between co-workers? Between those who must report to each other? Members
discuss the practical and ethical issues of working together and of breaking
up in this thoughtful discussion.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Lars, this is the "Going it Alone" series. We'll
be talking about "Sex in the Office" i.e., relationships
(Lars) thanks Polly..."sex in the office" eh....
(Lars) well I'll tell you there are a few women in my office I would
certainly like to have but, being married, one can only think of it.
(nothing wrong with a little daytime-work-fantasizing.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Is the fact that you're married the only thing that
would stop you, Lars?
(Lars) ) Oh yes...I think so. Well, or in a good relationship...
that would stop me as well.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Hmmm, does anyone here think that a sexual
relationship at work is something to think twice about?
(Becca) Oh god, yes!
(Lars) Oh, you are saying sexual "relationship"...
(Lars) whereas I am just thinking of a sexual "encounter"
(Becca) Sex in the office, I would love it <G>
(:: Polly :: <host>) Good! <smile> I was beginning to think that I was odd!
(annie) When the relationship is over, you still have work to deal with.
(Dave X.) Don't get your honey and your money at the same place! <g>
(annie) Becca, <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) Dave, after that, we might as well call the rest of
this CO off <g>... unless someone disagrees!
(Becca) Polly, how were you beginning to think you were odd?
(:: Polly :: <host>) But really, it *does* happen. We do end up attracted
to people at work.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Does the mere fact of attraction cause potential
(Becca) I don't think the attraction causes problems.
(:: Polly :: <host>) No, Becca? What does?
(Becca) It's when those attractions are acted upon that problems can arise.
(David T) There is a problem if there is also a reporting relationship
(Dave X.) I worked with a lover for four years. DISASTER!
(David T) Some companies have rules, you can't work for your spouse.
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, you mean that there's a control issue there?
(Lars) I am not talking about an ongoing "relationship"...
(:: Polly :: <host>) Dave, want to tell us? (I love your stories!)
(Lars) maybe just a quick boink in the file or storage room.
(David T) And perhaps a favoritism issue, too.
(Dave X.) Some companies have rules that say you can't have an SO within
the same company, regardless of reporting. Well, Poll, it was like
(Becca) I don't think that companies can effectively enforce those rules.
(Dave X.) <music, lights, camera, ACTION...>
(David T) I wonder if they can legally enforce such a rule, especially if
(:: Polly :: <host>) I agree, Becca.
(Lars) Dave, I'm sure they can enforce rules such as those.
(:: Marlaina ::) maybe not private industry, but government sure can
(Lars) Wasn't there just recently a very public disclosure of a similar
incident at Walmart store?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Legally, yes, but effectively, it's pretty hard!
(Becca) Lars, they can...but do they really?
(Dave X.) They can't enforce them, but they can make it VERY difficult.
(David T) Bill Gates married a subordinate.
(:: Polly :: <host>) <still waiting for Dave's story!>
(Becca) If the employees job performance is not suffering, what's the issue?
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, he's the boss! <g>
(David T) But when you are a billionaire owner, you can do it.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Becca, can it affect others' performance?
(Dave X.) Bill Gates is in a rather forunate position of power. He can make
his own rules!
(:: Marlaina ::) What about in safety jobs, such as cops?
(Becca) <----would have married Bill Gates if he had asked <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) should you be partners with your partner?
(Lars) When you have billions, everyone is your subordinate. :)
(Dave X.) Becca, ME TOO! <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) What about if you report to your partner?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Dave, LOL! Marlaina, that's a good question! What do
(Becca) Yes it can Polly <affect others' perfomance>
(Dave X.) Did you know he is Bill Gates the 3rd? Kind of scary that there's
another two of him running around!
(Lars) I think, especially today with upsurge of small businesses,... that
alot of "couples" are in business together...
(David T) If you report to your SO, won't the other workers be suspicious?
(Becca) I could never report to my partner.....
(Lars) Of course...that is different than actually meeting and courting...
(Becca) now on the other hand my partner could report to me <g>
(Lars) someone at work.
(:: Marlaina ::) Why not, Becca?
(Dave X.) I would jump into business (and other things!) with Lisa in a
(:: Polly :: <host>) Dave, <smile> I'm sure!
(:: Marlaina ::) <g> Becca, and she does that indeed <g>
(Becca) >EG? yikes...<EG>
(Lars) But then of course, from a position of power in bus. you must
consider repercussions, both legal and psycho. For example, if boss
dates worker and things turn sour one could easily make scene of
(:: Polly :: <host>) Repercussions to whom, Lars?
(Becca) Possibly to the company, Polly
(Lars) And even if not proven, publicity is often resp. for downfall...
even if innocent.
(:: Polly :: <host>) But Lars, it's possible to claim sexual harrassment in
many situations which we don't prevent. Why is work
different? How to the company, Becca?
(Lars) That type of relationship switches power positions of couple in
(David T) The company gets sued in these situations, Polly. Deep pockets.
(Lars) Worker often has manipulative power over boss as result of bad
relationship, or other relationship factors.
(David T) What about the most famous example of reporting to your spouse?
(Becca) Depending on the position of the employees in question, the company
has certain obligations to its employtees
(Lars) Especially if one of party is currently married.
(Dave X.) Clinton, David?
(David T) And Hilary. (Not saying who reports to whom)
(Dave X.) What about it? Seems to work quite well from over here. <g> David!
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, <g> Do you find a problem with that?...
(Lars) It works quite well, when you consider that Hillary seems to wear
(:: Polly :: <host>) As Dave says, it seems to work pretty well!
(Becca) An officer of the corporation assumes a certainlevel of liability
in conducting "affairs".
(Lars) the pants on a familial level.
(David T) What about Whitewater? Seems like that was involved there.
(Dave X.) Lars, that is a rather old fashioned stereotypical model don't
(:: Polly :: <host>) So, Becca, it becomes a company affair? No longer a
private matter? Almost as if the company were
conducting it? How so, David?
(Becca) Yup. It could be construed as such.
(David T) The partners were in different roles, but mixed them up for
(Lars) DAVE X - what is "stereotypical" model?
(:: Polly :: <host>) We're talking about mixing up sexual relationships and
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, I'm still trying to understand why you think
that the Clinton's marital relationship affected
Whitewater? (putting aside the question of whether
there really is a problem there)
(:: Marc F. ::) Assuming Bill did have affairs, that pretty much says
something about his relationship with Hillary, doesn't it?
(David T) Governor appoints a S&L regulator; his wife writes a letter to
(:: Polly :: <host>) <Aside: the guy on the radio just suggested that the
city crews put away their plows and get out the
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly, LOL!
(Lars) Marc...what do you assume that would say about relationship?
(Becca) LOL Polly!
(:: Marc F. ::) <--no snow in KS
(:: Polly :: <host>) But, Marc, does that have anything to do with either
of their jobs?
(David T) Lots of rain here in Philadelphia.
(:: Marc F. ::) Lars, if he's having extra-marital affairs, how could it
*not*? Polly, for government figures to have affairs is to
open themselves up to undue pressures.
(Lars) Marc...but what does that SAY about their relationship?
(:: Marc F. ::) Lars, it says Bill cheated <smile>
(David T) Is it cheating if your spouse knows about it?
(Lars) Well, that's certainly the popular MEDIA version...but I often find
myself doubting the media...and rightfully so.
(David T) (Still adultery, of course)
(:: Polly :: <host>) Marc, *if* he had affairs (and that isn't proven) do
we have any evidence that it affected his marital
relationship or his or Hillary's business dealings?
(:: Marc F. ::) David, it's still adultery, correct. Polly, it's affecting
his presidency as we speak. His credibility. Lars, I do too
- doubt the media.
(Lars) Marc, how is it effecting presidency and credibility...pls. show one
(:: Marlaina ::) Oh, Mrc! psst!!!!!!!!!!!!
(David T) Whether he and his wife can be trusted to not enrich themselves
at the public's expense.
(:: Marlaina ::) Give me a break! <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) Well, the rumors are certainly giving bashers a lot to
gossip about. <smile>
(Lars) of how marital infidelity has kept Bill from fulfilling job reqs.
(:: Marc F. ::) Lars, there is an investigation underway right now! That's
tax dollars to check on Bill's fidelity??? C'mon!
(Lars) Marc, I don't know of any TAX dollars being spent to investigat
infidelity... the only $$$$ I know of are coming from various
(Becca) <----first on the block with my RE_ELECT CLINTON GORE BUTTON...I
got it last April <G>
(:: Marlaina ::) Marc, aren't you getting confused with white water? That's
the investigation, not Bill's sexual fidelity or lack
(:: Marc F. ::) Isn't there a diffusion of interest re: both Whitewater and
(Dave X.) <--- Big Clinton/Gore fan!!
(:: Marc F. ::) I still believe it takes away from his credibility as
(Lars) I don't know any "serious" media outlet that is continuing to
(:: Marlaina ::) Me, too!!!
(:: Polly :: <host>) You're not the only one, Dave!
(:: Marlaina ::) How, Marc?
(Becca) Dave....no wonder we make such a wonderful couple <g>
(Lars) push the (alleged) infadelity factors.
(:: Marlaina ::) And you said there was tax dollars being spent to
investigate his fidelity, where?
(:: Marc F. ::) I can see I've walked into a Democratic caucus <smile>
(Dave X.) Becca, that's a little forward of you! <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) No, Hug> Marc, just want you to back your statement
(Lars) Marc, perhaps you have just stumbled onto an "intelligent" caucus. :)
(:: Marlaina ::) Where are tax $ being spent to investigate his sexual
(:: Marc F. ::) Marlaina, listen to the intent of what I said, not the
details - yes, Whitewater is being investigated.
(Dave X.) I mean, Becca, we practically work together! What will people say!
(:: Marlaina ::) Marc, you said tax dollars were being spent on it, and the
(:: Marc F. ::) Lars, intelligent I don't doubt.
(Becca) Marc, I would have to say that I am a little to the left of a
(:: Marlaina ::) Bill's sxual fidelty <I thought> I'm a moderate dem
(:: Marc F. ::) There wasn't any time or money spent on Gennifer Flowers?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Hmmm, Becca and Dave work together? Over a what,
7,000 mile difference? Err... distance.
(:: Marlaina ::) He wasn't in the white house then, what tax money was
(Pat) if whitewater means taking another look at the s&l debacle, clinton
can take the heat
(:: Marlaina ::) Time, yes, the republicans needed *something to
(:: Marc F. ::) There isn't any money being spent in Arkansas to check up
on the State Policemen?
(Lars) 7000 miles? where are you people calling from?
(:: Marlaina ::) try to re-elect George <g>
(Becca) Well, Polly, we do seem to spend an hour each AM together.
(:: Marc F. ::) Marlaina, let's leave party politics out of it, please?
This isn't a dem-GOP issue. It's an issue of the credibility
of our Pres.
(David T) Marlaina, George was dead in the water in February 1992, and sunk
(:: Marc F. ::) Whether he's Bush or Clinton.
(:: Marlaina ::) <smile> on which we do not agree, M
(Pat) like party politics have played no role in dredging this mess up
(Becca) Pat <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) Let's get back to the relevant parts of this issue,
ok? <smile> What, if any, effect has the fact that
the Clintons are married had on their performance of
(:: Marc F. ::) I think Hillary's helped Bill out, Polly.
(:: Marlaina ::) Me, too, Polly!!
(Pat) im clinton marriage throughout 1978-92 definite political asset
(David T) Oh, it improved HRC's performance as a lawyer, being married to
(:: Polly :: <host>) Is that something to be avoided, Marc? Is it a
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly, I think she's been an asset for him.
(:: Polly :: <host>) How so, David? So are we saying that mixing a sexual
relationship with work isn't always a disaster?
(David T) She represented the S&l and kept it going for months longer than
(:: Marc F. ::) You're assuming they have sex, Polly <g> Personally, I
(Becca) Ohhhhh Polly, good job bringing us back on point.
(David T) Marc, Chelsea is proof of something.
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, she was their attorney! Should she abandon
(Pat) what's relevance of hilly & billy doing it?
(:: Marc F. ::) How old is Chelsea, David?
(:: Polly :: <host>) they have legal problems?
(:: Marlaina ::) <sigh> who cares if they have sex!!
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly asked about sexual relationship - theirs seems to be
more business now.
(David T) For employees on less lofty levels, it is a risky business, Polly.
(Becca) If the roles were reversed and Hillary had been Govnr, people would
not be all over Bill because he maintained his carrer.
(Pat) presumptions about clinton's sex life pointless voyeurism
(:: Polly :: <host>) Right, Becca!! I think that's an important point.
(Dave X.) Right ON BECCA!
(:: Polly :: <host>) Pat, I agree.
(:: Marc F. ::) Pat!!! It was a JOKE!
(David T) Maintaining your career and representing clients dependent on
(Pat) ok,cool rush
(:: Polly :: <host>) David, are you saying that Hillary Rodham wouldn't
have had a career if her spouse had not been elected
(David T) Not at all, but she took on a client which lead to conflicts, IMO.
(:: Polly :: <host>) OK, let's posit this: I'm an attorney. I represent a
(Dave X.) You manufacture smalls, Polly? <g>
(David T) Perhaps sometime in 1996 we will begin to learn the truth.
(:: Polly :: <host>) my husband is elected to the town zoning board, before
which my client has an appeal. Are you saying that
I should resign from all representation of that client?
(:: Marc F. ::) That's called conflict of interest, isn't it?
(Becca) Polly, is it your client or your FIRM's client?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Not in anything but the zoning matter.
(David T) But your husband is the one with the obvious conflict.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Either, Becca.
(Lars) Of course it is conflict of interest, but who is to say how the
"couple" will handle such matters.
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly, ethically shouldn't you refer your client to another
attorney just for the zoning matter?
(Lars) And although it is correct to assume in professional career, one
(:: Polly :: <host>) Whitewater was a federal matter primarily. Bill
Clinton was Governor of Arkansas.
(Lars) would "back-off" from such a situation...who is to say who is at
(:: Polly :: <host>) That's what I said, Marc.
(Lars) becoming embroiled in such a contraversy in the first place.
(David T) The S&L was a state assn, Polly.
(David T) Regulated by an official appointed by the governor of AK.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Yes, David, but weren't the violations federal ones?
Perhaps I'm mixed up on this.
(Lars) The fact that we are discussing "whitewater" at all shows how easily
you are swindled by Media interpretations of these events.
(:: Marlaina ::) <wonders what happened to attractions at the office?> <g>
(David T) Only in the sense that the federal taxpayer provided
(Becca) <---wants to talk about sex in the office
(David T) Do you want to do it in the office, Becca?
(Dave X.) BECCA! Not now!
(:: Polly :: <host>) You know what; Marlaina and Becca are right <g> We're
(:: Marlaina ::) <is trying to *get* to the office---still>
(:: Polly :: <host>) sex in *two* offices, not one!
(Becca) Why not Dave?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Trying hard, I see, Marlaina! <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) <can't get out!! sheet of ice>
(Lars) I'm sure after Bill's speech on Tuesday he went back to white house
and gave it to Hillary good. That's what I consider an office "affair"
(:: Polly :: <host>) Folks, is it a different set of issues when we're
(David T) 'it', Lars? Just what?
(:: Polly :: <host>) interoffice matters rather than intr*a*office matters!
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly, if the two are working closely together, it can get
sticky. Complicated. The closer, the more complex the
situation can become.
(Lars) sticky AND slippery (if you play the cards right)
(:: Polly :: <host>) Conflict of interest is the biggest issue when you're
dealing with two places, I think, whereas the
interest of the business can intrude...
(:: Marc F. ::) Lars, I've been in that situation. Slippery is not apt.
(:: Polly :: <host>) into the relationship in the other (and vice-versa)
(:: Marc F. ::) Not even considering the interests of the business, Polly,
it can interfere withone's personal life/job performance.
(:: Polly :: <host>) How so, Marc?
(:: Marc F. ::) During a relationship, time is taken from the performance
of the job, and afterwards there can be hard feelings.
(:: Marlaina ::) It's bad enough if you break up with a partner and have to
go to work and try to carry on, but **worse** if that
partner is **at** work while you are ***trying*** to carry
(:: Marc F. ::) Marlaina, I agree.
(:: Marlaina ::) I can't imagine it!!!
(Becca) Me either, Marlaina.
(:: Marc F. ::) But I've done it.
(Becca) When you split, work is quite possibly your only refuge.
(:: Marlaina ::) And even the converse is true: consider this: you meet and
fall in love with somebody! Life is good! you wanna spend
your every waking moment <at first> with that person, but
you have to go to work. Oh my God!! that persn's at work!!
How could you get much done? You'd find excises for time
together, long lunches, things might get swayed one way or
(:: Marc F. ::) That was my point, too, M.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Marlaina, how does one get much done when infatuated
(Becca) See Marlaina? That's why I don't want to hire you as my assistant <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) M!! <hug> we do agree on a lot! Becca, you don't wanna
hire me cuz Ican't add for *.ht!!! and you are a numbers
(Becca) M, we have machines that add for you <g>
(Dave X.) Polly, EXACTLY!
(:: Polly :: <host>) So the beginnings and endings are problems. What
about a settled relationship?
(Dave X.) Even if you were not at work together, you will find excuses to
(Becca) I have seen a few of them work, Polly.
(:: Polly :: <host>) Thanks, Dave, I was beginning to wonder if I could be
heard here! <g>
(:: Marc F. ::) Don't couples need time away from each other??
(Becca) They resulted in happy marriages.
(:: Marlaina ::) Depends on if you work in a small business or a large one
I'd say If you own the business and it's a partnership then
it's a little different but if you are 2 office mates, I'd
still say no
(:: Polly :: <host>) I've seen them, too, Becca. I think that personality
and commitment to the business are very large factors.
(:: Marc F. ::) I don't ever want a relationship where I'm with my partner
24 hrs a day, 7 days a week. It'd smother me.
(:: Marlaina ::) what happens if you disagree on something at work?
(Becca) They were in large companies and the individuals involved were
(:: Marlaina ::) Good for you, Marc!!! But were they office mates, Becca in
(:: Marc F. ::) So, my answer to Polly's question, is "No way!"
(:: Marlaina ::) See, I think that you can do it if you aren't in each
other's faces all day!!
(:: Polly :: <host>) Has anyone seen/experienced a relationship where the
partners couldn't make it?
(Becca) It was when I worked for a Big 6 accounting firm
(:: Polly :: <host>) We do seem to be conjecturing here! <smile>
(:: Marc F. ::) Polly, I was in one <smile>
(:: Marlaina ::) Yes, I have, Polly
(:: Polly :: <host>) You worked together, Marc?
(:: Marlaina ::) Two police officers same shift
(:: Marc F. ::) Yes.
(Dave X.) Yes, Polly, me.
(:: Polly :: <host>) <waiting for everyone's stories!>
(:: Marc F. ::) She drove me nuts.
(Dave X.) My previous conviction. <g>
(:: Marc F. ::) <--still nuts
(Becca) Dave, you are an ex-con? <g>
(:: Marlaina ::) They took the job home with them each had a different
style of enforcement styles and such it finally ruined
their marriage, and one of them left the force
(Dave X.) Marc, in my case I think we drove each other nuts. That sounds a
little one sided.
(:: Marc F. ::) Dave, I drive everybody nuts. That's nothing new <g>
(Dave X.) Ha bloody ha, becca! <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) So it ruined a career, too, Marlaina?
(:: Marlaina ::) No, the one who left joined another force elsewhere
(Dave X.) Marc! <lol> I thought it was only me!!!
(:: Polly :: <host>) Becca, Dave's a good con-catcher!! He knows how to
relate to them! <g>
(:: Marc F. ::) In my case, she transferred to another job, and now, years
later, we're friends.
(Dave X.) <bow> He's been put away Poll! Two years he got! Did I tell you
(:: Polly :: <host>) Good, Marc. At least there was some resolution,
there. No, Dave!! Congratulations!! Dave, have you
uploaded that story yet? I just can't tell it the way
(Dave X.) <blush> No! Wrote, it, but it's at home. Haven't got round to it!
(Becca) He does have a way with words, does he not, Polly?
(:: Polly :: <host>) Sure does, Becca!
(Dave X.) Oh Becca, you should have seen my performance the day after,
Polly can tell you! John Cleese, eat you heart out! <brag brag>
(:: Polly :: <host>) Hmmm, what do we have to do get it where anyone can
(:: Polly :: <host>) All bragging justified! <hug>
(Becca) Ooohhhh, D--aaaave.... could you please upload the story for all
to enjoy??? Pretty please? <batting eyelashes>
(Dave X.) Polly, you're letting the cat out of the bag! <g>
(Becca) Bye Marc
(:: Polly :: <host>) Too late, the cat's gone! <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) This has certainly disintegrated! While we can still
remember, any last
(:: Polly :: <host>) words on "Sex in the Office?"
(Andrew) I'm all for it.
(Becca) Yes, please <g>
(Dave X.) Yes. Keep the door closed!
(Becca) Dave. better yet, my door locks <g>
(:: Polly :: <host>) OK! Log closed! <g>
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