Sb: A Nice Shy Guy
Fm: Chris
To: All

I am a nice guy.  I hate being a nice guy.  I have this
morality problem that kicks in every time I try not to be a
nice guy.

Everytime, dealing with women, I leave them thinking 'Oh,
he's nice but probably not very exciting.'

I suppose if I were agressive, I would have solved this
problem by now.  I would have told someone of the opposite
sex a dirty joke, or whatever.

Please, help me find out how not to be a nice guy...or at
least to not look like a 'nice guy' at first.

Thanks,

CPM



Fm: Cindy
To: Chris

Hi! Nooooo... you have it ALL wrong!!!!  You can be a nice
guy *and* be exciting!!

Agressiveness is the key, but tell a dirty joke and some
woman might slap you in the face. Subtle agressiveness is
definitly the way to go. But first, exactly how are you
nice? ie> examples?  Maybe you are too giving.. the woman
might mistake this for desperation, which is definitly
unattractive.

Nice: Opening the doors 4 women, lending an open ear or a
shoulder, easy to talk to, passionate about work or
whatever, and someone a woman can rely on.  Now extend this
to be more agressive... flirt! (but not too extensivly or it
could be taken that you are a pervert). Rent as many CARY
GRANT and CLARK GABLE movies as you can.. this will be an
education you will never forget!  They are still the
'perfect' man in many women's eyes.

Be passionate about *something* (other than sports)... this
will make you quite exciting.

-Ciao

Cindy



Fm: :: Marc B. :: 72470,3566
To: Chris

Hi chris,

I don't think I can help you. I'm a nice guy and I'm proud
to be so. I'm not interested in women who want the agressive
dirty joking kinda type you described and I found a lot of
interesting and beautiful women to be looking for nice guys.
I'm not really sure where your problem is.

  Multimegamediahugs




Fm: Chris
To: :: Marc B. :: 72470,3566 (X)

Marc,

The problem is how to stop women (and I suppose men do it
to) for going for the more exciting jerks out there.  If you
are like me, quiet and reserved, you don't get noticed.
That is the problem.

I suppose it is a problem of confidence, but the real jerks
are the ones who have absolutly no doubts of their own
confidence.  A nice guy actually wonders about what he is
about to do, a morality check if you will.

Au Revoir,

CPM



Fm: Larry W.
To: Chris

Being a Nice Guy isn't the problem. I know, as I'm also a
"Nice Guy".

I wouldn't change it for anything. I see these jerks out
there, and just want to throw up, especially when they're
with the "Nice Girls". Aggressiveness isn't my style. I
beleive that a true romantic relationship needs to be
founded in friendship. Of course, that leaves me waiting to
ask the lady out, and maybe I'm missing the opportunities,
while I wait to become her friend.

Perhaps we should look at the basis of being a "nice guy".
In my case, at least (and most likely yours), it's one thing
-- honesty. I couldn't bring myself to lie to a woman to
impress her about me. I don't want to have to try and live a
lie. I'd rather be honest with her.

What I hate most, though, is hearing a woman that I've
become friends with say "You'll make some one very happy
someday". Whether this is from someone I'm romantically
interested in or not, it's still bothersome to me. I want to
know what can I do *today* to make someone interested, and
show her how happy she can be.

It sometimes puzzles me when I hear women talking about how
there are no "nice guys" out there. Well, here's one,
looking for a nice girl, not looking for someone to take
advantage of (or be taken advantage of by).

I hope this wasn't too rambling, Chris. And, Ladies, please
don't take anything I've said the wrong way. I'm just
frustrated and confused. Please, tell us how we can show you
how we are, and capture your interest.

Larry



Fm: Cindy
To: Larry W.

Dear Larry...

I have the same attitude towards guys... wait and become
friends with them so at least y I'll have a substantially
deeper connection w/them & have a definite interest by the
time I get romatic notions.. UNFORTUNATLY, somewhere along
the way, if you get tooo friendly and comfortable, the
person disregards you as anything *but* a friend, no matter
how nice & romantic you can be. So!  The obj. is to get
friendly but leave a lot of mystery... and take a chance
with a person sooner rather than waiting for that bond to
have been sealed as one of close friendship.

Hope that helped.

Now, from a woman's perspective, how can we romantically get
someone involved w/us... why do we always have to wait for
the guy to ask us out? I know this is the 90's, but really,
no one tells us how to communicate our feelings to guys w/o
being * aggressive *too direct * pushy * or sexually
flirtatious. What's romantic methods for 80's (oops,
flashback! hehe, 90's women?)

Once again, Cindy



Fm: Larry W.
To: Cindy

Cindy,

Thanks for the message.  I'm glad to hear some women feel
the same way I do toward relationships. It's hard to know
when to "make the move". I don't mean to wait a long time,
but at least until we've talked a bit, so I have some idea
of her likes/dislikes, personality, etc. before I take her
somewhere and have to "entertain" her alone, as it were.

I meet most women at Country Dance clubs. It's really a
great place, as you can talk, dance or whatever, but you can
still have your 'space'. Dancing with someone new is fun, as
you may teach them something,or vice-versa, and you have
something to talk about that can lead into other topics.

Larry




Fm: Cindy
To: Larry W.

Yes, its a nice way to begin a friendship/relationship.

I meet most men from  former cooworke& their friends, or in
the 3 classes I sighned up for 2 improve my knowledge
foundation. A girlfriend and I considered taking up ballroom
dancing, but they recommend  you come with a 'male'
partner!. Se' la vie.


Cindy



Fm: Larry W.
To: CJP

Cindy,

That's where Country Dancing is nice. Generally, you don't
have to go to classes to learn anything. The clubs nearly
always have dance instruction, usually earlier in the
evening, then open dancing later. You don't have to have a
partner, and you won't be thought of as looking to be
'picked up', either. You can line dance, or get into partner
dancing. Many places here (northern NJ), do a 2-step
'mixer'. The guys line up down one wall, the girls the
other, and you meet in the middle, dance down the floor, say
thank you (courtesy is important!), rejoin the line, and
then dance with another partner.

It's lots cheaper than formal lessons, too. Even if the club
charges a cover, it's only 5-10 bucks, and when the 'formal'
instruction is over, you can usually find someone to teach
you a dance or two.

Larry




Fm: Cindy
To: Larry W.

Larry.. its funny, I once started to give a guy a 'thank
you' kiss on the cheek, cheek, you know, and he adjusted his
head to meet me on the lips.. I think he was confused...
hmmm.

re: CW dancing.. whats the place called? I suspect (w/my
preconceived notions, the age range is like 33-55.. am I
wrong? (too oold 4 me!) Cindy



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Cindy

Cindy:

       I think your idea of courses is a great one.

       What a wonderful way to meet people with similar
interests.  And maybe you'll even be able to "study"
together.  <nudge, nudge, wink, wink>

Bob



Fm: Chris
To: Larry W.

Larry,

After all the responses I've received so far, I think yours
was the first that described exactly what I meant.  I would
never give up being a nice guy either, but a lot of the
responses assumed that is what I meant.

>>What I hate most, though, is hearing a woman that I've
become friends with say "You'll make some one very happy
someday". <<

I have heard something close to that many times (mostly from
my mother, however), and I have to control myself from
breaking into allergic convulsions at this point.  It just
proves to me that, no matter how bad women say men are at
not seeing past their nose, women are just the same.  No
better and no worse.

Au Revoir,

CPM



Fm: Larry W.
To: Chris

Chris,

I used to have my mother tell me that, but now it's women in
my peer group, which is really disappointing.

It's really weird. I've got a friend who's been in an
'abusive' relationship (her word), and now is in a
relationship with a guy who's another jerk, taking advantage
of her, making her feel bad when she hasn't done anything
wrong, just generally treating her like crap.

She told me that when she first met him, she thought he was
a shy, unassuming guy, maybe even a little naive. Boy, did
she find out wrong! He told her after they'd been going out
for months that he was still married! She thoght that he had
been married, but was divorced. She stops talking to her, he
calls her, 'pushes her buttons', and they get back together
for a while.

What I find frustrating, is that I AM shy, unassuming, and
maybe a little naive (and really do want to go out with
her), but what's missing that would make someone go out with
him and not me?

There's a Country song called "Why Not Me" sung by the
Judds. It's about a woman saying to a guy, who is a friend,
that's looking for someone - Why not me? Maybe I should play
that one for my friend?

Larry



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Larry W.

Larry:

       <<There's a Country song called "Why Not Me" sung by
the Judds. It's about a woman saying to a guy, who is a
friend, that's looking for someone - Why not me? Maybe I
should play that one for my friend?>>

       I don't think it would hurt.  :)

       In a previous post, I said guys can sometimes be
clueless about the romantic interest of a woman.  I think
the same thing holds true of a woman.  I've experienced it
both ways.  A lady who was interested in me almost had to
hit me over the head to make me aware of her interest.  And
the lady who is now my wife seemed quite oblivious to the
fact that I was hoping for more than friendship from her.

       There comes a point, in my view, when the subtle
approach ceases to be effective.  That's tougher on those of
us who are shy than it is on others, but I guess we have to
think about taking short-term pain (overcoming the shyness)
for the potential of long-term gain (a relationship).

       So crank up that CD-player and go for it!  :)

Cheers

       Bob



There is 1 Reply.



Fm: Chris
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

Bob,

>>A lady who was interested in me almost had to hit me over
the head to make me aware of her interest.<<

What I would give...

CPM



Fm: Chris
To: Larry W.

Larry,

>>Maybe I should play that one for my friend?<<

Hey, go for it.  I think you, like myself, should try a
little more aggression <starting to sweat at the thought>.
I'm not talking about the guys at the construction site <Hey
babe!> type aggression, but just maybe we should be a little
more forward about our own feelings to these women.

>>but what's missing that would make someone go out with him
and not me?<<

This is just a guess, but if you are like me in this sense,
what is missing is self confidence.  I have a real problem
imagining myself asking for a date, dating, and one day
marrying anyone.  I never seem to get past the first part
because, due to fear of rejection, I never ask.

Maybe I'm babbling, what do you think?

CPM



Fm: Chris
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

At my age (24) they are looking for excitment.  Considering
I was brought up by Irish Catholic Accountants...I never
figured out the exciting part.  Not that I blame my parents,
that's just me.

Au Revoir,

CPM



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Chris 76453,350 (X)

Chris:

       I still want to understand this, so let me start off
by asking a fairly direct question.

       What do *you* consider to be the traits of an
exciting guy?  What is it that he does or is that makes him
exciting?  And what part(s) of that do you think are missing
from your life?

Bob



There is 1 Reply.



Fm: Chris
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

Bob,

An exciting guy is someone who really is quite selfish.  He
does not care what you think...or if you think.  He just as
soon hit you as look at you.  If you are in his way, move
now or never move again.

        It is a sad concept, but if you look at the younger
generations (I can't believe I'm old enough to say that),
there are these young girls who follow around these real
twits.

It is really not as bad as you get older, but I'm still not
past it.

Au Revoir,

CPM

There is 1 Reply.



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Chris 76453,350

Ladies & gentlemen:

       Is this true?  Is this the kind of person that women
are looking for these days?

       Is this the type we want to hold up as a role model:
"If you're like that, then you're gonna have women crawling
all over you?"

       And does the same hold in reverse:  Are men looking
for women who fit the definition of "exciting" that Chris
has given us?

       I can't believe that more of you don't have a view on
this, so let's hear 'em, folks.  Agree or disagree?

Bob



Fm: Cindy
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

What do you mean.. ?  I don't know.. what makes a woman
*exciting*? I'd like to know.

Is is it teasing?  Playing hard to get? Her work? (something
besides her looks please!)

-CJP



Fm: Chris
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775

Maybe its a Canadian thing?

Au Revoir,

CPM



Fm: :: Marc B. :: 72470,3566
To: Chris

Chris,

I don't think that women consider somebody who behaves
selfish and without manners exciting, well maybe in a few
cases of catholic upbringing.

I think what makes a person exciting is, if we can,feel that
this person shows self-confidence and some emotional
strength. But these aren't nessecary things to be found in
the kind of person you think is exciting.

I wonder, would YOU like such a guy to be your friend? Would
you care for him or would you just want to profit from his
success? Why do you think women want such men?

Multimegamediahugs



Fm: Chris
To: Larry W.

Larry,

>>I mean, if I'm not interested in every woman, then
certainly every woman I'm interested in won't be interested
in me.<<

        I suppose that sooner or later you have to run into
a woman who is interested.  I just wish it was sooner.

>>Up till recently, I had no friendships with women that
weren't directly work-related.<<

        I think we are much alike, although it sounds as
though I am a little behind you.  I have this problem now.
I have this nasty habit of freezing up when it comes to
social contacts, but professionally I can chat with the
best.

Problem number two, as far as this is concerned is that I
refuse to date women I work with due to a previous bad
experience.  At the moment, however, I am close to
attempting to break that rule.

        Actually, maybe you could give me some advice on
this one.  This young lady, I'll call her Mary, has already
said no when I asked her out once.  That was about a month
ago, and I really had not seen a lot of her since due to our
schedules.  This evening, however, we were working together.
She was very nice to me...almost too nice.  I mean she
actually laughed at my jokes (which were pretty bad as
usual).  Normally, once denied I don't ask again, but I
wonder if she has changed her mind and wants me to ask
again?  Then again, maybe I'm reading into it too much.
She's a nice kid, a little younger than I usually consider
dating and maybe (probably) she's just as if not more
confused than I am.

Any thoughts?

CPM



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Chris

Chris:

       I assume your question about what to do about your
co-worker was meant for all of us.  And, if not, let me
know, and I'll mail ya my two cents.  :)

       I think how to proceed might depend on why/how she
declined last time.  Was it because of a previous
commitment?  Did she say she had a policy against dating co-
workers?  Or do you not even know?

       I've got to tell you that all my experiences in
dating co-workers were disasters, but I'm not sure that you
should extrapolate that to your situation.  But tread
cautiously, my friend:  there *can* be all sorts of
landmines out there.

       The other point you made was that you freeze up at
social contacts, but that professionally, you can "chat with
the best."  This is a distinction that really interests me.
I'd really like help in understanding it and any insight you
could provide would be terrific.

Cheers

       Bob



Fm: Chris
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

Bob,

>>     I assume your question about what to do about your
co-worker was meant for all of us.  And, if not, let me
know, and I'll mail ya my two cents.  :)<<

        This has always been an open conversation, I
appreciate all advise, and hope that someone in a similar
situation reading it might gain help here as well.  If this
was private, I don't think I would use the message board
anyhow.

>>     The other point you made was that you freeze up at
social contacts, but that professionally, you can "chat with
the best."  This is a distinction that really interests me.
I'd really like help in understanding it and any insight you
could provide would be terrific.<<

        Quite simply, if I have a reason other than to
socialize, I am fine.  When I go to parties, I get nervous,
clam up, etc.  The only exception was at my dad's 50th BD,
and I believe it was only because I was barkeep.  It is the
same at work, when I have other things to concentrate on, I
have no problem whatsoever.

        My real problem is to convince my subconscience to
relax when I have nothing else to do at a gathering.

CPM



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: Chris 76453,350

Chris:

<<        Quite simply, if I have a reason other than to
socialize, I am fine. When I go to parties, I get nervous,
clam up, etc.  The only exception was at my dad's 50th BD,
and I believe it was only because I was barkeep.  It is the
same at work, when I have other things to concentrate on, I
have no problem whatsoever.

        My real problem is to convince my subconscience to
relax when I have nothing else to do at a gathering.>>

       Great analysis, Chris!  I'm much the same way.  If
I've organized a cocktail party and have lots to do, I can
be incredibly witty and charming with almost anybody.

       But if I'm one of many guests and am there because I
have to be, then I get nervous and don't want to talk to
anybody and want to get out of there as fast as I possibly
can!

       Folks, Chris and I are looking for ideas on how, as
he puts it so well, "to convince our subconscience to relax
when (we) have nothing else to do at a gathering."

Bob




Fm: Cindy
To: Chris

Hi.. hope I can jump in and say something, as you have all
helped my confidence here...

This Mary.. women laughing at jokes, smiling fiddeling with
the hair, being friendly.. definitly sounds to me that she's
putting out some interst signals.

Maybe before when you asked her, she hadn't thought of you
in that way so she declined. And maybe now she's had time to
think it over, get used to the idea.. get used to you (you
said you worked together more). Its a good chance she's
changed her mind about you. Or at least she's willing to
give it a chance. Second, maybe she had a boyfriend earlier,
and third, maybe she just wanted to be pursued... women (who
aren't pursued everday and treated like meat) love a
romantic persistant guy..

I say, go for it! Ask her out again... maybe ask her out to
something besides the cliche' dinner... a play (theatre), a
hockey game, whatever.. As long as you don't make any
physical moves in the office setting, and you are not her
boss, I don't see any way that this could be misconstrued as
sexual harassment. Just do it while you have the chance and
before she thinks you are clueless and loses interest!

Best of luck Cindy!



Fm: Chris
To: Cindy

Cindy,

        The only real problem I have left is age...Chris'
rule of etiquette #337 is that I don't date people under
say...23.  I am five years older than Mary.  If I were 45
and she 40, this would not mean much, but I am 24.  Maybe
I'm making a pyramid out of a teepee, but I don't know.

        Actually, I had to work with her today, and her mood
was completely different.  Not quite as happy as last night.
Then again, unlike last night, I really didn't have a chance
to speak with her that much.

        I think I will try again, just don't know how or
when yet...but I'll work on it.  Thanks

Au revoir,

CPM



Fm: Larry W.
To: Chris

Chris,

It sounds like she could be interested, having thought about
it and changed her mind. What you might try, instead of
going for the formal 'date', is lunch together. It's a lot
less formal as far as dates are concerned, and there's a
finite time allotted to it, since you've both got to get
back to work.

Good luck!

Larry



Fm: Larry W.
To: Cindy  74454,177

Cindy,

33 too old? See if I answer your messages! <pout>


The age range varies a lot, considering the place you go,
which night of the week, etc. I've met all ages from 19 on
at any number of places. At some, there is an older crowd,
but at others, it's the place to meet people. There will
always be a good age mix at any of these places.

As for the name, well, it depends on where you are. In NJ
there's the Whiskey Cafe in Lyndhurst, Colorado Cafe in
Watchung, Yellow Rose in Manville, Palomino club in
Wallington, Jukebox Eddie's in Greenbrook on Wed & Sun.
These are the places I frequent. There are others, of
course. You've just got to seek them out.

As for the kiss, maybe he was trying to send you a signal???

I had the same thing happen once. I was giving someone a
kiss good-night, as usual, I was aiming for her cheek, but
she turned her head and met me squre on the lips. Nothing,
er, deep, but a definite change. I, of course, didn't pick
up on any signal that might have been incorporated...

Larry




Fm: Larry W.
To: Jason

Jason,

>>I can agree with you about jerks going out with nice
girls.   If all the nice guys don't want to ask out the nice
girls then I guess there is only the jerks to ask the nice
girls out.<<

This is true.

>>Everytime you see a nice girl with a jerk say to yourself.
"I COULD OF GONE OUT WITH HER, BECAUSE THAT GUY IS A LOSER
IF THAT IS ALL SHE IS SETTLIING FOR THEN SHIT.  I COULD
EASlY GOT A DATE WITH HER IF I WOULD OF ASKED HER!
Then Smile big !!<<

This is not entirely true. I HAVE asked a very nice girl out
on several occasions, she KNOWS I'm interested, but still
dates these jerks. The old saying about leading a horse to
water may apply here.

>>Just be yourself and the girls will notice you're a nice
guy and if that is what they are looking for she will let
you know!!<<

I do, and they do, but they're usually dating friends of
mine...

Larry