Sb: #my situation
Fm: alan
To: all

So sue me, I couln't think of an interesting subject title.
To start, I'm more interested in responses from the female
perspective.  Anyway, this is the situation:

There is a woman whom I find very attractive.  I'd like to
meet her, strike up a conversation and see where things
lead.  Unfortunately I absolutely, positively can not strike
up a conversation with a stranger completely out of the
blue.  At one time I thought maybe she was sending signals.
I was so frightened of misinterpretation that I ignored
them.  Now they are no longer.

So the quetion is, Is there a way to let her know I'm
interested without direct conversaion ?  Can it be done
without becoming that weird guy who is always
staring/stalking me ?

What I'm hoping to do is send her a signal.  Then if she
responds in kind, I think I can force myself to begin a
conversation.

Alan



Fm: annie
To: alan

alan,

You say you find the woman attractive, and want to meet her
to see where things lead, but you "absolutely, positively
can not strike up a conversation with a stranger completely
out of the blue." Sounds like you're stuck! <smile>

Is there a mutual friend who could possibly introduce you?

<<At one time I thought maybe she was sending signals.>>

How so?

Perhaps more details about the circumstances of your
acquaintance would help someone to come up with a practical
suggestion for you. IOW, is this someone from work, someone
who rides your bus, a stranger passing you on the street?

annie



Fm: alan
To: annie

Annie,

I'm stuck ?  That is what I was afraid of.  I guess it is my
destiny to be alone.

We are both members of the same health club.  There is no
mutual friend for introduction.  And as for signals, all I
can remember is saying to myself, "Hmmm maybe she is
interested."  The actual events leading to that thought are
forgotten.

If I could find the nerve to start a conversation, What
would I say ?

Alan



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: alan 71574,3442

Alan:

<<I'm stuck ?  That is what I was afraid of.  I guess it is
my destiny to be alone.>>

       Now, let's not go jumping to conclusiosn here, Alan.
<g>

       I *think* Annie was just teasing you a bit, since she
went on and asked for more information to help you.

       But your point raises an interesting question for me,
since I've heard it from members before.

       Let me pose it in the way of a statement, rather than
a question.  I do not believe that anyone has a *destiny* of
being alone.  Being alone is a choice that one makes,
sometimes consciously, sometimes not; sometimes for good
reasons, sometimes not.

       I believe that if someone really wants to be in a
relationship, he or she can be.  It's not always easy and it
may not always be the *right* relationship, but I think it's
possible.

       What say you, folks?

Bob

P.S.   Going back to the important point, Alan, I think the
gym provides all sorts of possibilities for conversation-
starting.  What equipment do you use? What equipment does
she use?  Is there a chance you could ask her to show you
how to use some equipment with which you're unfamiliar?
Could you ask her about some aspect of her workout that
interests you?  If there's just been a fee increase or a
change of hours, could you talk to her about that?  Or, if a
staff member has been helpful to you, maybe a "throw-away"
comment about "Gee, I've always found (name) so helpful."

       I think you should exercise (no pun intended) some
caution about trying to send a lot of non-verbal signals
before talking to this lady. Women are understandably
nervous about stalkers, and you sure don't want to give her
any hint that you're one of those.

Cheers



Fm: Cindy
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

Yes, I agree- no one is *destined* to be alone... no one
should think this way. Theres someone out there for you, it
may not be now, or even tomorrow, but you've got to make an
ongoing effort.  Being so negative just gives you an excuse
to not try.

But I don't agree with something bob said- not every woman
is paranoid of having someone stalk them- forget the non
verbal signals, its too cliche, and I think you have a
greater risk of rejection in a gym with this method. Its
best to strike up a natural friendly conversation and *then*
begin some subtle non-verbals...  Second, alot of women
resent being treated like meat just because she's in a gym..
is it so inconceivable that she is really there to
exercise?? Geez.

Once again, Cindy



Fm: alan
To: :: Bob ::

Bob

       I *think* Annie was just teasing you a bit >>>
See how easy it is for me to misinterpret things ?

       Being alone is a choice that one makes, sometimes
consciously, sometimes not; sometimes for good reasons,
sometimes not. >>>

Okay let's say that at one time I made the choice to be
alone.  Now that I've decided it was a bad choice, How do I
change ?  Old habits die hard.

       I think the gym provides all sorts of possibilities
for conversation-starting. >>>

I'm not short on possibilities.  I'm short on nerve, small-
talk ability, and sometimes voice (the words are there, the
lips move, but no sound comes out).

Alan




Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: alan

Alan:

<<       I *think* Annie was just teasing you a bit >>>
<<See how easy it is for me to misinterpret things ?>>

       That's one of the hazards of this medium, Alan, and
we've *all* done it.  In fact, that's how most flame wars
start.  In real life, we count *so* much on body language
and facial expressions to interpret how a person is feeling.
We don't have that here, which is sometimes a real
disadvantage.

       But relax, you're among friends here.  <smile>

<<Okay let's say that at one time I made the choice to be
alone. <<Now that I've decided it was a bad choice, How do I
change ? <<Old habits die hard.>>

       Yup, they do.  No question of that at all.

       As to how to change, I guess the first thing you have
to do is *decide* you want to change.  Then, like much else
in life, I think, it involves taking risks.  Cindy took a
risk this weekend, by giving her friend a kiss.  To overcome
the current situation you describe, you're going to have to
take a risk and say that first "hello" to the lady.

       Somebody in one of the conferences said he visualizes
what the situation will be like, and that helps him through
it.  He spends some time in advance picturing himself in his
mind approaching someone.  He practices what he would say.
He thinks about her possible responses and has some
reactions ready for them.  Then he does it.

       I think that's really a large part of it -- being
able to *see* ourselves doing something that seems beyond
us.

       I went to a workshop this summer where we were doing
a visioning exercise.  The facilitator told us there was a
major difference between "imagining" and "visioning."  The
latter requires something more concrete: you have to
actually be able to create, in your mind, the situation and
have it seem real to you.

       I think that you're getting some good tips in this
message thread. All you have to do (I'm sorry, I don't mean
to minimize it) is see yourself following through on some of
them.

       And then, of course, coming back and telling us how
you did!  <g>

Cheers

       Bob




Fm: alan 71574,3442
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

:: Bob ::

I guess the first thing you have to do is *decide* you want
to change.

-  If I hadn't made that decision I wouldn't have posted the
message.

...it involves taking risks.
- How do you take a risk unless you believe there is at
least a chance of sucess ?

The latter requires something more concrete: you have to
actually be able to create, in your mind, the situation and
have it seem real to you.
- I tried a visualization exercise once.  My mind went
blank.   Maybe I am stuck.  I can't visualize myself
striking up a conversation.  Nor can I visualize her have
any interest in conversing with me.

And then, of course, coming back and telling us how you did!
<g>
- But of course.  Just don't expect anything in the near
future.  I won't be there next week and I only see her once
or twice a week anyway.

Alan



Fm: :: Bob :: 76346,1775
To: alan

Alan:

       <<If I hadn't made that decision I wouldn't have
posted the message.>>

       Good point!  <slapping my forehead>

<<- How do you take a risk unless you believe there is at
least a chance of sucess ?>>

       Let me reverse the question, Alan:  Why *not* take a
risk unless you're sure you're going to fail?

       Now, for sure, there are risks *I* won't take.  Most
involve things that would have me labelled as macho by some.
But I guess I don't feel that need all that much.  I'm
comfortable with who I am, though there are certain aspects
of myself I would like to change.  But I don't feel a need
to climb Everest or jump out of an airplane or seek a Ph.D.
in molecular chemistry.

       But I guess, when I meet someone, I think there is
always a possibility this is someone from whom I can learn
something, or who might become a friend. Part of it, for me,
is always keeping my expectations -- of myself and of the
other person -- somewhat low.  That is, I don't approach a
woman assuming that we are going to end up as lovers.  Among
other things, I don't know if I would *want* her as a lover
== that depends on what I find out when I'm dealing with her
as a potential friend.

<<- I tried a visualization exercise once.  My mind went
blank.
  Maybe I am stuck.  I can't visualize myself striking up a
conversation.  Nor can I visualize her have any interest in
conversing with me.>>

       OK, then, let's talk about successes you have now.
Who *do* you talk to, and what do you talk to them about?
Can you talk with a co-worker you don't know very well?  Can
you chat with the cashier at the supermarket about nothing
sort of things?  Can you talk with someone in your
profession about common concerns?  Let's talk about where
you *have* felt comfortable and see if maybe we can think of
ways of moving from one success to another.

<<- But of course.  Just don't expect anything in the near
future.
  I won't be there next week and I only see her once or
twice   a week anyway.>>

       That's okay, Alan.  There are no timetables, no
deadlines involved. Sometimes we tend to increase the
pressure on ourselves by saying "Well, if she doesn't
respond by Tuesday, I guess she's not interested."  We're
setting ourselves up for grief, in those cases.  Slow and
easy, my friend. Slow and easy.  For *both* your sakes.  :)

Cheers

       Bob




Fm: alan
To: :: Bob :: 76346,1775 (X)

:: Bob ::

Why *not* take a risk unless you're sure you're going to
fail?
        Part of it may be uncertainty as to what there is to
gain.

Can you talk with a co-worker you don't know very well?
        Yes if I need their help in a work related project.
Or if it is someone is familiar.

Can you chat with the cashier at the supermarket about
nothing sort of things?
        No.

Can you talk with someone in your profession about common
concerns?      Yes.

Let's talk about where you *have* felt comfortable and see
if maybe we can think of ways of moving from one success to
another.
        As a freshman in college we had an introductory
dance.  I got paired with a girl who didn't want to dance
and I never learned to dance.  Consequently we wandered off
and talked thru the evening.  But that was almost twenty
years ago and I gotten a lot shyer since.  Plus I didn't
look at her as a potential friend.  We were there, we didn't
want to dance, talking was the other alternative.  Also, we
didn't know each other.

        There was no history.  Now I have a reputation of
being quiet.

Alan



Fm: Cindy
To: alan

Your not stuck!

Lets see.. starting a conversation where she wouldn't think
you are just another guy trying to pick her up.. hmmm..

Lets see.. she could drop something, and you could rush to
pick it up for her... or better yet, you could be, lets say,
on the treadmill together and after a few minutes, you could
ask her a question like, what time is the next x? Or if shes
enjoying her book/tape/magazine, and of course you'e got to
be ready to relate to it somehow. Or you could be doing laps
and accidentially backstroke into her (8. (at whick time
you'd apologize and mention that by the way your name is
alan...)  Anyway, maybe after a short hello and convo about
whatever, the next time you meet her in the club you could
walk right over to her and mention, hi, remember me, alan?
How's everything etc. etc. and get a longer convo. going...
find out what you have in common.. maybe ask her out before
you leave, or someother time. There's lots of
possibilities.. but I wouldn't ask her out the first time
you meet her and talk to her- its like your trying too
hard...

Hope that as the advisee I'm giving you some quality 2cents!

ciao

Cindy



Fm: alan
To: Cindy

Cindy

        she could drop something, and you could rush to pick
it up for her >>>
and the odds of her dropping something at moment when I was
there are ?

        you could be, lets say, on the treadmill together
and after a few minutes, you could ask her a question like,
what time is the next x? Or if shes enjoying her
book/tape/magazine >>>

But I have a hard time getting a machine next to her.  It
also brings me back to the original point, that I am
incapable of starting a conversation.

        Or you could be doing laps and accidentially
backstroke into her >>>

Yeah, that is what I want, my first impression to be of a
complete klutz <g>.

        the next time you meet her in the club you could
walk right over to her and mention, hi, remember me, alan?
How's everything etc. etc. and get a longer convo. going...
find out what you have in common.. maybe ask her out before
you leave, or someother time. >>>

This I think I could do.  It's just that it is the second
time and I've got to get over that first time hurdle.  I
have a few ideas but I don't know if they are any good.  I
also don't know if there is a way to reply to a message and
send it to more than one person.  So, Annie, Bob, if you're
out there, pay attention <s>.

I think that if I could get her attention and make eye
contact I could at least manage a "Hi".  I might even be
able to throw in "How are you ?" This is the part where I
wish I could smile.  I don't know how to get her attention.
Plus initially I would be two nervous, scared, etc. to say
anything.  A couple of seconds later when I was calm enough
to attempt speech, she would have gone on to
something/someone else believing I wasn't interested in
talking.

My other thought was to get a personal trainer.  I know she
is friends with several staff members and I thought that
might be a way for me to work an introduction.

Maybe I should mention that I've been a member for years and
she is not a new member.  I figure by now that she must feel
that if I had any interest I would have approached her long
ago.

There is no such thing as bad quality 2 cents.  All help is
appreciated.

Alan


Fm: annie
To: alan

alan,

<<So, Annie, Bob, if you're out there, pay attention <s>.>>

<raising hand> Still here!

<<This is the part where I wish I could smile.>>

I know what you mean. I don't smile too much, either. I'm
trying to get my children to smile, but I don't think they
believe me when I tell them how effective it is. Can't you
just fake it? Just for a moment? And while you're faking,
fake some confidence, too. That's the deal-breaker, IMO.
Presumably, once you get into a conversation, you'll relax a
bit and can drop the act, if you know what I mean. <g>

<<...personal trainer.>>

I'm not sure how this is going to help do anything but
relieve you of some more money. Aren't the personal trainers
the same as the general instructors? So couldn't you just as
easily get into a conversation with an instructor and work
your introduction that way?

Or am I missing something? <smile>

annie



Fm: alan
To: annie

Annie

<raising hand> Still here!
- Nice to see you are still around.

I'm trying to get my children to smile, but I don't think
they believe me when I tell them how effective it is.
- Well of course not.  It is their job not to believe mom
and dad.

Can't you just fake it? And while you're faking, fake some
confidence, too.  Presumably, once you get into a
conversation, you'll relax a bit and can drop the act...
- If I could fake it I wouldn't have need for the shyness
workshop.  (and then I would have never met such wonderful,
helpful people <s>).

  I agree that confidence is the missing element.  Too bad
you can't just run to the store and buy it.  I have no doubt
I'll do better  once I get into the conversation.  But it
may take two or three conversations for me to fully relax.

I'm not sure how this is going to help do anything but
relieve you of some more money. Aren't the personal trainers
the same as the general instructors?
- You may be correct.  I think a trainer provides more
depth.  And an instructer would show you how a piece of
equipment worked.  A trainer would show how it worked and
help plan a routine to achieve your   desired results.  Also
I think an instructer instructs and then leaves you on your
own.  A trainer is with you throughout the session.  That
means more time to engage in conversation.  After all, I'm
not sure I want to walk up to an instructer and say, "Hi,
can you show me how   this works and introduce me to...".
But I'm not sure.  I generally walk in, workout, and go home
with little contact with other members     or staff.

Alan



Fm: Cindy
To: alan

Hi.. Alan, the personal instructor sounds like a good
idea.... Yes, then you could be asked to be introduced..
just don't get too down for having hired the trainer in the
first place..

Re: You said you can't envision having this woman be
interested in you- well! I must say that IMO you are a very
creative person, and obviously have alot to give! (based
upon some of your suggestions, I don't see *how* this person
could not be interested).

You mentioned that you have a hard time starting a
conversation- what happens then after you are introduced to
her? Will you clam up?

Starting small talk is one of my strengths,I think.. what
ever you say, just make sure its something that she can
relate to. Then extend the conversation from there. Once you
both start talking about something you agree about, your
confidence will skyrocket and you will fee relieved, I
guarantee it! <g>. The trick is to find the common interest
or discussion topic...  I could come up with a few
suggestions, but it would help to know something about her..
anything..

Ciao!

Cindy



Fm: alan
To: Cindy

Cindy

I must say that IMO you are a very creative person, and
obviously have alot to give!
        THANKS!  I'm not sure I believe it but it is nice to
hear.

Will you clam up?
        Probably but not to the same degree.  First words
are hardest. Second words may be hard but not as hard as
first.  With second words I also would have the knowledge
that I made it thru the hardest part.

Starting small talk is one of my strengths,I think..
I could come up with a few suggestions, but it would help to
know something about her.. anything..
        I think I want the first attempt to be on my own.
Should I fail miserably I may come back and ask you for
suggestions.

I guarantee it! <g>.
        And interestingly enough, I have that in writing
<g>.

I guess we all want that wonderful all-encompassing romantic
love of our life.. and it scares me to death. (I can't
believe it could happen to me!).
        I know the feeling.  I wish those feelings weren't
so familiar.

...and hope you got something from my suggestions. I hope
you'll let us know what you decide to do <g>.
        You've been a big help and it is appreciated.  I'll
let everyone know what happens.  Even if I chicken out and
do nothing.

Alan



Fm: Cindy
To: alan

Hi there, Alan. If you're still there, let us know.

Well.. so as you know I went skating with paul this
afternoon.

Well, I've come to the conclusion that either he's not
interested, or gay. <g>  Probably the former! I just don't
understand, I can be so sweet, so giving..

I think my creativeness might have impressed even you- I
said, 'lets race' and he agreed, so I said, what does the
winner get? And he said, eternal gratitude. ANd I said,
gratitude in what form? And his reply, just your plain
every-day gratitude. Geez! (I won, btw). I offerd how to
teach him to skate faster saying, 'of course Id have to tug
you along, but you like adventure, right?' and he declined..
at this point we started speaking in metaphors about his
'uncle' who has a 'file' on me, and knows all about the time
I had too much vodka and hence is not to be 'trusted'. Well,
I played along, saying that perhaps his 'uncle' doesn't know
me very well, and that that was in the 'past' and that his
uncle wouldn't feel this way if he 'got to know me better'.

I'm telling you, I set myself up.. so now I know theres no
chance w/paul, and I'll probably get passed over by Jose
too..or he'll want me for physical purposes only. THeres no
hope. double sigh! It would all be so much easier if I
didn't have to deal with all of this. And its valentines day
on Tues... I'm depressed.

Maybe one of us will be successful.  Any guys in New
Jersey??? <g>

Cindy



Fm: alan
To: Cindy

Cindy,

Well, I've come to the conclusion that either he's not
interested, or gay. <g>
        It may not be the conclusion you had hoped for but
at least you know where you stand.  IMO romance may be
wonderful but friendship is more valuable.  If only we could
find both <sigh>.

I just don't understand, I can be so sweet, so giving..
        No doubt someone will come along who appreciates all
your good qualities.

I think my creativeness might have impressed even you-
        You did good.  I'm proud of you.

Theres no hope.
        Yes there is.  It is just sometimes hard to see.
Those are the times it helps to look at all the good things
you do have.

I'm depressed.
        Join the club.

Maybe one of us will be successful.  Any guys in New
Jersey??? <g>
        We'll both be sucessful just not at this point in
time.
        Interestingly enough I am from NJ.  Tomorrow morning
I hop on that plane and fly back to NJ to see my family.

Alan



Fm: annie
To: alan

Alan,

<<No doubt someone will come along who appreciates all your
good qualities.>>

Yes. And let's just hope he's not too shy to say hello.
<g,r,d>

annie



Fm: annie 72722,1725
To: alan 71574,3442 (X)

alan,

<<...health club.>>

I guess the obvious wise-crack is "Will you spot me?" but I
wouldn't have the nerve to say that, myself, so I certainly
couldn't expect you to.

I liked Bob's suggestions. You could ask her for change. You
could ask her if she knows at what time they close on
Saturdays. It might be helpful if you were talking to an
instructor and included her in the conversation --- that
might make it a little more casual. (Of course, if it's
another guy, you run the risk of him moving in on her, too!
<g>)

Some people are great at that sort of small-talk. I'm not,
but I wish I was. It really comes in handy, especially at a
time like this.

annie



Fm: Jim B. 76607,357
To: alan 71574,3442 (X)

 > If I could find the nerve to start a conversation, What
would I  say ?

        Just put on your biggest grin, and walk up to her
and tell the truth: "HI there. I've been trying to get up
the nerve to say hello to you for quite a while."
        Then improvise.

Jim B



Sb: #441933-my situation
Fm: alan 71574,3442
To: Jim B. 76607,357

Jim B.

Just put on your biggest grin, and walk up to her and tell
the truth: "HI there. I've been trying to get up the nerve
to say hello to you for quite a while."
        - Funny, I was just thinking the same thing myself.

Alan



Fm: Jason 72673,3546
To: alan 71574,3442 (X)

How are you ever going to know this person better if you
don't talk with her?

Where do you see this person?    Work? Church? Bar?


Where ever the place is pick something that is common thing
that is easy to speak about.  What I mean by this is for
example if you see this person at the bar.  ASk her if she
likes the food, beer, or the place.  Just find something
easy to talk about.    Once you chat with her you should be
able to find out if she  likes your company or she is not
interested.  If she gives you short ansewers, that may be a
hint that she may not be interested.  If so move on and look
for another possible babe!


Then again if she seems interested with what you have to say
then keep talking to her.  If this is someone you see often
I would not come on her to strong. You should always try to
become her friend before anything else.


Try this and let me know

Good Luck!!


Fm: alan 71574,3442
To: Jason 72673,3546 (X)

Jason

Where do you see this person?    Work? Church? Bar? >>>

So you came in late but basically you offer the same advice
as everyone else.  (at the gym)

Alan



Fm: Jason 72673,3546
To: alan 71574,3442 (X)

Alan,


As I was reading along I found out it was at the gym after I
sent the message.


Try this at the gym next time you see her.  Just walk by her
and if she looks at you and smiles just smile back and say
hi! (Smile anyway)  After you say that then just go and do
your normal stuff.  If you see her the next day say hi
again.  What you are doing is trying to break the stereotype
of "gym guys". If a guy comes on to strong to a girl that
does always work.

What I hope you will gain is the ability to test her out see
if she interested in you.  The other thing is if she is
interested in you she will thing your a nice guy.


What kind of body language are you getting from her?  Did
you notice her first or did she notice you first?  Give me
more detials!


Good Luck!!



Fm: alan 71574,3442
To: Jason 72673,3546 (X)

Just walk by her and if she looks at you and smiles just
smile back and say hi! (Smile anyway) Did you notice her
first or did she notice you first?
        - Sorry, it's been too long to know who noticed who
first.
          I'm not sure that I could get her to look at me
let alone smile.

Alan



Fm: Jason 72673,3546
To: alan 71574,3442 (X)

Okay,


So you have known of her for a while.   You don't have to
get her to smile at you.  If she looks at you then smile
back.  This will let her know that you like what you see.  I
can't tell you how to or where to speak with her okay.  Lets
say you see your female friend at the pop machine.  That
would be a perfect time to get behind her in line and just
try to get her to notice you.

Even if you don't talk directly to her you could stand in
line and say to yourself.  Out loud say "Boy what should I
get to drink?....I'm not in the mood for Coke."  As you are
saying this you see she grabs a Diet Coke.  So then you
contune saying something like "Boy I don't know what to get?
In fact, If you are given any respondence then say "I think
I going to have a diet coke!"    Then as see in turning
around then say thanks!.

That is just one example.  I used some line like that and
she even gave me a suggestion on what to get.  Then we spoke
to each other on the way back to where ever we can from.
Can't remember where I was

But you just have to thing of some thing to say when you see
her.   When do you think you will she her next?   Monday?



Fm: annie 72722,1725
To: Jason 72673,3546

Jason,

<< Just walk by her and if she looks at you and smiles just
smile back and say hi! (Smile anyway)  After you say that
then just go and do your normal stuff. If you see her the
next day say hi again.>>

I was thinking that you may have stumbled unto something.
Sometimes, just the repetitive "hi's" which accrue over
weeks form some sense of "knowing" the person, whether it's
justified or not.

I can think of several occasions when I've recognized people
from one particular place, then saw them elsewhere,
whereupon we both behaved as though we already knew each
other, even though we had never been formally introduced.
What we had created was some sort of familiarity, that eased
the eventual "official" meeting, to some extent.

I think even a shy person can catch someone's eye, smile and
say a simple "hi."

annie