19-Oct-93  01:31:58
Sb: Bittersweetness abounds
Fm: JohnDC 
To: All

A vent.

This evening, I went to the public library to request a couple of books.  For
one, I only had the title ("The Emperor") and a misspelled author's name; for
the other, the same plus the sure knowledge that it was published very
recently.  So it took a little research, using the computerized catalog and
Books In Print, to figure out whether the best route might be inter-library
loan, or a purchase request.

I admired the woman who helped me with this; her smile when I thanked her for
her help was particularly sunny and gratifying.  I left after submitting one
form, taking the other one home with me so that I could get more information.
I found the information I needed almost immediately, and decided to go back to
the library -- not only so I could drop off the form (for I could do that any
day), but to see her again. I felt silly, but it was something I really wanted
to do.

I went in, smiling, and waved the form in greeting.  I showed her the article
in which one of the references occurred, laughing at myself as I proved it was
the magazine's misspelling, and not mine.  She joked with me: "That's enough
to change my entire opinion of you!"  The completed form was submitted, and it
was all very pleasant.  At that point I had the dilemma of whether to walk
out, eliminating all possibility of further contact, and hanging out (without
being obvious) in hopes that an opportunity might present itself.  So I looked
 at a few shelves.  Fortunately, it was near closing time, and as she went to
the door to turn the OPEN sign around, I made for the door as well.  "Have you
been at work since opening time?" I asked. "No, but almost," she said. "It's
been kind of a long day."  "It always seems long, doesn't it, when you have to
work into the evening?"  I said, and we exchanged a few more ice-breaking type
sentences. She said she'd be glad to get out of there. With my hand on the
door, I looked her in the eye, smiled softly, and said, "I don't suppose you'd
like to stop for a cup of tea?"  She frown-smiled. "Probably not," she said. I
gave a tiny, courtly little bow. "Okay then," I replied, unruffled and
respectful.  I can be such an effing gentleman.  I left.

I felt immensely better for having made an overture. It was terribly
difficult, and took courage; moreover, I did it without making her
uncomfortable. So I left with a great deal more self-respect than I would have
had, had I simply left the library, saying nothing for the two thousandth time
I've been in such a situation.  But then, of course, the analysis began. What
might I have done differently?  Perhaps if I hadn't phrased my question
negatively?  Perhaps if I'd found more opportunities for polite but personal
conversation as we were working on the book search earlier?

Fruitless.  The plain reality is that even if you get along famously with a
stranger, you can't ask her out, even if it's just down the street for tea at
the Kuan Yin Coffeehouse, and expect a positive response.  I actually did
everything just about right.  Although it's not clear in my recounting above,
I'm not an unattractive guy, and I'm quite sensitive to the nuances of
personal interaction; people who encounter me casually usually leave feeling
pretty good, I think.  But it's not safe to say "yes" to a casual invitation
like this, I suppose.  Some famous creeps have had great charm.  And then
there's what I think is a Northwest thing: friendliness or no, people only let
you come so close unless you work together, or have been introduced by someone
you both know.

I just feel so frustrated.  When I think of all the women and men in this
city, or in the country for that matter, just as lonely as I, and just as
unable to make contact with someone they'd love to know, I despair.  What can
I do?  Tell me.

JohnDC

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: JohnDC 

John,

It does sound like you did everything right in trying to invite the librarian
to tea.  Were I in her shoes, I'd have been flattered, intrigued, and also
said "No."

We're assuming she's single or otherwise unattached, of course.  But these
days, a woman is taking a real risk if she goes out with a man she just met in
a public place.  I know it happens, but I'd be very hesitant to do it.

Don't give up, though!  Go back to the library in a couple of days, chat with
her again, perhaps do some transaction where she'll have to see your name and
address (proving you're not a roving mass murderer), and play it by ear
whether to ask her out again.  Eventually, if you discover that she's single,
why not bring her a single red rose?  Or have it delivered to her.  Don't do
that until you've established a bit more personal contact, though.  A romantic
gesture like that can be either very moving or frightening, depending on the
circumstances.

Anyway, I think you're on the right track!

Paula

Fm: JohnDC 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

Thanks -- your response makes me feel good about myself.  It's certainly nice
to think she may have been "flattered and intrigued!"

>>Eventually, if you discover that she's single, why not bring her a single
red rose?  Or have it delivered to her.  Don't do that until you've
established a bit more personal contact, though.  A romantic gesture like that
can be either very moving or frightening, depending on the circumstances.
__________

Wow, that's something I never would have considered doing. I remember this
hilarious cartoon I saw, pretending to be a guide for men. "In matters of
love, timing is all-important," the heading said.  Beneath, there were two
drawings of a man saying "I love you" to a woman. The one labelled RIGHT TIME
showed her translating it as "You mean more to me than life itself."  The one
labelled WRONG TIME showed her interpretation as "You'll never get rid of me,
even with a court order!"

My first girlfriend (at 31, I've had five) worked at a hot dog shop in
Berkeley, and one of the male patrons would slip her notes in which he'd
written horrible poetry. He was a non-threatening sort, I gathered, and we
both had a good laugh over his stuff, always addressed to "The Dawg Gal."  But
it was the first time it struck me how vulnerable women are to being fixated
on by total strangers who are taller, heavier and just may be insane. I've
never wanted to cause any woman fear.

Today, Ann Landers (or maybe Dear Abby -- who can tell twins apart?) printed a
letter from a woman who was working at McDonald's when a male customer said he
wanted a hamburger, a Coke, and a date with her the next night. She said she
liked his manner and the way he asked, so she accepted, and they were married
a few months later (this was 18 years ago).  Which only goes to show that the
world is so large that even the most unlikely of events will occur somewhere,
sometime.

Thanks.

John(DC)

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: JohnDC 

John,

Why don't you slip her a note in a book, addressed to the "Book Gal"?  <g>

If you choose to go back to the library and hang around a bit, you'll have to
read her responses very carefully.  I've been stalked before, and it isn't a
nice feeling.  If you make it clear that you simply want a chance to speak
with her again and have no desire to make her uncomfortable, everything will
be OK.

You could strike up a conversation with her at the desk, but keep in mind too
that employees there may have been told not to socialize with the "customers."

Perhaps after seeing her in the workplace another couple of times, you could
manage to be there when she goes for lunch.  Tell her you'd like to buy her
lunch, but you don't want to bother her if she's not interested.  This leaves
her the option of saying, "I'd love to, but I'm married."  Or, "I'm sorry, but
I can't."  She doesn't have to tell you why, of course.  You have to be ready
for rejection, but if you never try, you'll always wonder.

At least you have the option of taking the chance.  So many women wish they
felt comfortable about asking a man out, but they're afraid to appear too
aggressive.  So they have to wait for an invitation that may never come.

Paula

Fm: Charles S. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula:

"At least you have the option of taking the chance.  So many women wish they
felt comfortable about asking a man out, but they're afraid to appear too
aggressive. So they have to wait for an invitation that may never come."

Women have the exact same options that men do -- just fewer of them take
advantage of them.  A passive woman is "normal" -- a passive man is "weak".

I admit that I have never looked at being the person EXPECTED to ask someone
out as an advantage.  I have always considered it to be a BURDEN and a
RESPONSIBILITY.  I guess that it is all point-of-view.  If one feels like they
are FORCED to do something, then it becomes a burden.  If one feels like they
are not "allowed" to do something, then it becomes a valuable option.

I wish more women felt comfortable about asking a man out, also.  How do you
think that men can help women remove this self-imposed restriction?

Charles S.

Fm: Doug R. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

PMFJI, but something you said picqued my interest in light of current events
in the Chicago area.  You said...

>> I've been stalked before, and it isn't a nice feeling.

There have been several cases of "stalking" here lately, with at least one of
the women being murdered.  Since it always seems to be a woman who is the
victim, I find it hard to relate.  Hence my question, is this something you
wouldn't mind discussing?  If you don't want to, just tell me to mind my own
business. :-)

Livin' and learnin',

Doug

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: Doug R. 

Doug,

Perhaps "stalking" is the wrong word.  A fellow found out where I lived and
made it clear he could drop by and pay me a visit.  I wasn't sure he really
did, but I had that feeling of being watched more than once.

Paula

Fm: Doug R. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

What did you do about him?  Did he just crawl back into the woodwork on his
own?

Doug

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: Doug R. 

Doug,

I threatened to sick the law on him if he kept writing to me.  I took extra
precautions for a while whenever I left the house.  We already had a
super-duper alarm system, so I started arming it when I was home alone, all
the time, no exceptions.

I was prepared to go to CIS security about him at one point, but the situation
resolved itself quickly.  I can't go into more detail than that, I'm afraid.
It was partly my own fault for giving too many clues in an open room one time,
and I had also joined another forum under my whole name the same week.  He put
two and two together and found me.  Not hard to do.

Lessons learned, no real harm done.  <smile>

Paula

Fm: Doug R. 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

Thanks for sharing that with me.

While I do know how sexist this must sound, I've never been in a situation
where I've felt powerless like that.  The fact is, that powerless feeling
seems to be 100% reserved for women, no?  That's why I was so interested when
you mentioned "stalking" in the first place.

Doug

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: :: Paula E. :: 

Paula,

>> Perhaps "stalking" is the wrong word.  A fellow found out where I lived and
made it clear he could drop by and pay me a visit. <<

     I'd call that stalking!  Perhaps this character didn't have a gun and
threaten to shoot you, but when you are made to feel at the mercy of someone
who intends to intrude upon your life, it's really the same in the feeling of
violation and vulnerability.  This is *not* the same as sharing locator
information with a trusted friend.

Hugs!

Polly

Fm: :: Paula E. :: 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,

Many thanks for the hugs!  It *was* scary to know this creepoid might be
waiting for me in the bushes.  I don't think he ever had any real dangerous
intent, he just liked the power of being able to frighten me.  <sigh>

Oh well, I've met so many other *terrific* folks here to make up for that one
slimeball!

Paula

Fm: Charles S. 
To: JohnDC 

John:

Tomorrow, I have a first "date" with a woman who works in a bookstore that I
frequent.

Who knows if/what/when anything will happen out of this -- however, it is a
"landmark" in that it is the FIRST time in my life (I'm 35) that I have ever
asked out someone who works in a store/place that I frequent (and she even
agreed <smile, tremble>).

Take care.

Charles S.

Fm: Charles S. 
To: JohnDC 

John:

Assuming that you don't start avoiding the public library then you have made a
start with someone.  Who knows what will happen in the future?

Meeting people at places where you can meet them again is great.  It gives
TIME to get to know them and them to get to know you.  It is those (majority)
situations where there feels like there is ONE chance and ONE chance only to
get to meet them (such as in a store or a supermarket or such) that gives me a
really sinking feeling.

The only thing that I might suggest different in such an encounter is to not
follow along during closing time while asking the question.  Ask in advance,
when there is not such an immediate pressure on the question (and such that
you don't start giving the impression of a "stalker" <smile>).

Take care.

Charles S.

Fm: JohnDC 
To: Charles S. 

Charles,

>>Assuming that you don't start avoiding the public library then you have made
a start with someone.  Who knows what will happen in the future?
__________
Wow -- you know, that never occurred to me? I tend to lump all the disasters
together, whether salvageable or not <g>!

I like your thought about meeting people at places "where you can meet them
again" being an opportunity. Maybe I'm too careful, but I tend to dismiss the
thought of returning to someone's place of work, because it doesn't seem fair
-- they can't leave.  But if I'm sensitive to whether or not I'm bothering
them, why shouldn't I make myself available?

Excellent point as well about not taking advantage of closing time. On this
occasion, it simply happened to be closing time, but she wasn't leaving yet,
so I avoided that uncomfortableness.

Thanks,
John(DC)

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: JohnDC 

John,

       I was all set to write you a long reply when I found that Paula had
already said almost everything I wanted to say! <smile>

       I would only add that your librarian might not be as single as you
think, she may be interested in you but have an attachment which means that
she wouldn't do anything about that interest.

       Meanwhile, don't stop your wonderful ways.  The world could stand a lot
more romantics like you.  And be sure to go back to that library soon!

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: JohnDC 
To: :: Polly :: 

Polly,

Thanks for the great encouragement.

>> I would only add that your librarian might not be as single as you think,
she may be interested in you but have an attachment which means that she
wouldn't do anything about that interest.
__________
The issue of interest -- of women's attraction to me -- sets off some
thoughts. In my "vent" I said I'm "not unattractive," which is precisely the
truth.  As it happens, I'm not overly attractive either (I think); I perch
high on the bell curve, somewhere between Woody Allen and Steven Seagal.  An
average guy, whose looks are individual enough to make him easy to recognize,
but not enough to make anyone's head turn.  Every time I see a picture of
myself, I think, "Wow, I'm better looking than I knew."  And when I look in
the mirror, I think, "Why on earth am I cursed with looking like *this*??"

Whatever she thinks of her own looks, a woman gets a pretty good idea of how
most men see her.  If she's plain, she adjusts to living in a world where
every actress and every model sets a standard she can't hope to reach, and if
she's gorgeous, she has to adjust to being seen by most men as a body first, a
woman second, and a person last.  But men who have neither exceptional looks
nor exceptional charm don't have any way of getting an impression of their own
attractiveness.  Lord knows I don't.  I told you what I think of myself, but
which perspective is more true?  And with no woman in my life and the women in
the world not telling, how can I ever *know*?

>>be sure to go back to that library soon!
__________
Hmmm.  I probably won't.  The rationalization part of that decision -- the
part that gives respectable camoflage to fears of awkwardness, of failure, of
success -- says that I probably wouldn't find her again, because employees of
the city library each work at more than one branch, in varying shifts.  The
more analytical part says that I wasn't really interested enough in *her*, as
herself, to expend a lot of effort in finding her again, in getting to know
her.  Because what do I really know about her?  My frustration was intense
last night, not because she had the shape and smile of the woman of my dreams,
but because my lack of connection with her symbolized all of the ways I feel
alone and apart in the world: the lack of a family to love and take care of me
(and to be loved in return), the lack of love for myself, even my separation
from God.  The root causes of that frustration won't go away if I and the
woman in the library fall in love.  So, while I continue to actively look for
someone to share my life with, I think it's better for me to concentrate on
more plausible opportunities.

Thank you for your warmth!

John(DC)

Fm: :: Polly :: 
To: JohnDC 

John,

     You've jumped right into one of my own issues <smile>.  As a matter of
fact, I posted here about it a few months ago.  I have very little idea what I
look like.  People tell me that I'm pretty, but that is irrelevant.  When I
look at pictures, I don't necessarily recognize the person I see there; the
image is not the same as the one I see in the mirror.  I've finally decided
that it doesn't really matter.  The relationships I have are between the me
behind the appearance and the people behind others' appearance.  That
appearance might be a slight factor in encouraging an initial meeting, but it
doesn't affect *anything* after that.

>>I probably won't [go back to the library]. ... The root causes of that
frustration won't go away if I and the woman in the library fall in love. So,
while I continue to actively look for someone to share my life with, I think
it's better for me to concentrate on more plausible opportunities. <<

     You're right that the issues are yours to solve, but what does that have
to do with going back to that particular branch of the library to do whatever
library business you need to do?  You do seem to be forgetting one aspect of
what you told us:  the woman acted as if she were interested in you, too! Why
"actively" look only elsewhere, when you have a real opportunity here?

Hugs,

Polly

Fm: :: Neil :: 
To: JohnDC 

John,

>>The plain reality is that even if you get along famously with a stranger,
you can't ask her out, even if it's just down the street for tea at the Kuan
Yin Coffeehouse, and expect a positive response.<<

Are you sure?  Maybe she has an SO.  Maybe she had an appointment.  Maybe she
doesn't know you well enough, *yet*.  There are a thousand *legitimate*
reasons why she might have said no.  If you continue to hang around there, how
long until you're no longer a stranger?


Neil

Fm: JohnDC 
To: :: Neil :: 

Neil,

Could be.  Thanks for reminding me that when factors remain unknown, a
positive outlook is as valid as any other.

John(DC)

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: JohnDC 

Dear John,

First: DON'T PANIC. Everything is under control and the situation might look
devastating but not hopeless. (I hope nobody will ask me to give reference on
that one. <g>)

I think you done a great job and you should be proud. I think you already
achieved something and you possibly don't recognise it. The way you described
what happened, I think she showed positive reaction. So why did she said
"probably not"?

Well, I don't want to guess how often she hears this and I'm sure not all of
them are jerks (for which you give a good example). Before we further consider
what could be done, I think you should know what you want. Are you looking to
meet somebody and make friends or would it have to be love? Maybe she's in a
good relationship, would you know?
If I'd be in your place, I'd give it a second try. I'd look for a book that is
announced, but not in the stores yet. Then go to the store and ask her about
it. Of course she will tell you that they don't have it yet, so you offer to
leave your phone number and ask her to call you, so you can come and pick it
up.
I'd say if she calls you herself, that would at least be a clear indication
that she appreciates what you've done so far.
Even if that idea doesn't work, you know where she's to find. You could also
ask her for a recommendation.

Or do you think I'm off the ground?

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: Stephen M. 
To: :: Marc B. :: 

<<<DON'T PANIC. Everything is under control and the situation might look
devastating but not hopeless.>>>

Sounds abit like Hitchhikers. <G>

stef  <--- hitting the panic button.

Fm: :: Marc B. :: 
To: Stephen M. 

Stef,

DON'T PANIC is Hitchhikers, but I would bet that the rest of what I wrote
couldn't be found there in THAT wording. <g>

                      Multimegamediahugs

Fm: JohnDC 
To: :: Polly :: 

>>     You're right that the issues are yours to solve, but what does that
have to do with going back to that particular branch of the library to do
whatever library business you need to do?  You do seem to be forgetting one
aspect of what you told us:  the woman acted as if she were interested in you,
too! Why "actively" look only elsewhere, when you have a real opportunity
here?  <<

Polly,

I don't think she did act as if she were interested in me.  She was friendly,
and we joked together a tiny bit, but as I understand things it would be a
great presumption to assume that friendliness equals interest.

Of course, I'd like to think that she were interested in me, and that every
attractive woman who is friendly with me is attracted to me. But if women
frequently send me signals about their interest, they've gone right over my
head. A couple of years ago I grew tired of always looking for signals that
might or might not be there, and I changed my interior monologue to assume
that most friendly women did, indeed, think that I'm handsome and attractive.
But the monologue grew hollow and I went back to admitting that I can never
really know.  (I"m not a big believer in affirmations, I'm afraid.)

>>  People tell me that I'm pretty, but that is irrelevant. <<

If people tell you that, you should believe them -- especially if you
occasionally hear it from people with nothing to gain from flattering you.

JohnDC