#: 134943 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. :: 
To: You!

          I'm so bloody sick of everybody worrying about the
          micrometer of fat they're carrying on their butt--I don't
          really care about it.  The idea isn't to live forever, but
          to live for some purpose.  -  Joan Dye Gussow, Professor of
          Nutrition & Education, Columbia University.
 
     This quotation, which recently appeared in VEGETARIAN TIMES, hit home
with me.  I'm not dieting "to live forever" although I am concerned about my
health.  I'm dieting because I always diet at the beginning of the year
(after pigging out over the holidays), and because I'm vain.
 
     I hate to admit it, but I'm more hung up about body image than I would
like to be.  Like many shy people I tend to be a perfectionist, I'm self
critical, and my self-esteem sometimes sags.  Is it any wonder that I'm
intolerant of a little extra fat here and there?
 
     How about you?  Do you like your body?
 
     If not, what don't you like about your physical appearance--and why?  Do
     you do anything to compensate for your (perceived) shortcomings?
 
     Are your body image and shyness related?
 
Kevin C.
 

#: 135050 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #134943-Do you like your body?
Fm: Hari 
To: :: Kevin C. ::

Kevin,

I am certainly body conscious, but first about the fat.

I happen to have a small paunch <invisible to nearly all others :^>, which was
pointed out to me in somewhat pointed terms once. I have since been aware of
it. And I notice that it simply doesn't respond to any kind of diet <g>.

I have read and believe, that most people worried about fat should actually be
worried about _posture_. When I do my stomach exercises, then in a couple of
weeks, my stomach feels flat. Stop it and soon the 'paunch' is felt again.
Then again, let me recommend to one and all the following book <by a feminist
too <g>>:

       "Eating Awareness Training" by Molly Groger

It is very simply about learning to eat when hungry, rather than when sad, or
happy or lonely or whatever. As I said, it had NO effect whatsoever on my
particular unsightliness <g>, but it did make me much more aware of my eating
habits, and I eat a lot more fruit etc now. Being AWARE that you are eating a
large helping of deep fried hash browns has to be one of the more nauseating
experiences in life :^>

What don't I like about my physical appearance? Actually, basically the lack
of muscles <g>. And my way to compensate is to avoid any and all circumstances
in which my body appears from behind the bundle of clothes in which I hide it
...

hari


#: 135184 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #134943-Do you like your body?
Fm: Michael W.
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

Hi Kevin,

No I don't really like the way I look.  I've got a problem that (For men at
least.) is as bad - if not worse than being fat.  I'm skinny - I mean real
honest to God rail thin - scrawny even!  Its a terrible thing; give me pasta,
ice-creme, chocolate, use a syringe and inject me with a gallon of fat and - I
don't gain a pound.  When I was young my father talked on C.B. radio,  He gave
me the handle "Toothpick".

At almost six feet tall and weighing in at a whopping 135 pounds buying
clothing is an embarrasment. I have to go to the boys department sometimes to
find anything that fits.  It goes without saying that I'm not a very muscular
person.

I also have a minor birth defect - a hole, or depression a little smaller than
the size of a man's fist in the center of my chest.   This isn't so noticible
as long as i wear a shirt - but I am *acutely* aware of it in any situation in
which I am not wearing  one.

I have purchased a Soloflex machine to try - at home where nobody else can see
me - too build up muscle and improve as much as possible the appearance of my
chest - as well as the rest of me.  But, keeping to a regular workout schedule
is as hard for putting it on as it is for takin it off.  Especially so because
I dare not expose my body to someone like a trainer at a health club who could
give me direction and encouragement or, kick me in the butt when I'm just
plain lazy.

All of this in-part causes and, in-part intensifies my shyness.  I avoid
swimming pools for instance in the summer.  One of the few places on earth
where women are practically falling out the sky and,  I am too embarrased of
myself to be seen there.

MWW 


#: 135254 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #134943-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Lana M. :: 
To: :: Kevin C. ::

Hi, Kevin!

I think I used to be a *lot* more self-conscious about my body.  At this point
in my life, though, I'm pretty satisfied with what I've got here.  I'm not
sure how *others* view it, but all in all, I have no major complaints.

Oh, sometimes I think it would be nice if I could somehow miraculously drop
the 20 extra pounds I'm carrying (at least, according to the Met Life charts,
I'm either 20 pounds overweight, or I'm 1.5" too short! <grin!>).  But
frankly, I'm not willing to go to the effort of "dieting" just to lose it. 
About 6 years ago, I managed to lose almost 100 pounds.  I've managed to keep
most of it off (OK, so I regained some -- I am, after all, only human, with a
chocolate fixation).

I think that perhaps my original shyness was closely linked to my body image. 
I'm talking *YEARS* ago, though, when I was tall and --==**SKINNY**==--!!  I'd
like to think that my recent (within the past 5 years or so) recovery from
some of my shyness is linked somewhat to a new sense of self-acceptance.  I've
always known that my best features are (in no particular order) my legs, my
eyes, and my hair.  I've finally come to the realization that the rest of me
isn't so bad, either. <smile!>

Cheers!

Lana


#: 135306 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #134943-Do you like your body?
Fm: Scott D.
To: :: Kevin C. ::

Kevin,
       I would have to say that I mostly hate my body.  I am also shy as hell,
but I think I do a good job of hiding it.  As to appearence, I'm really small,
5'4", 115 lbs, not much hair left, not very muscular lookin, my ribs show
easily, and I don't have much of a butt.  Also, my nose and my head are too
big.  But, my wife still says she loves me and likes the way I look.  I'll
never figure out what she saw in me physically, but I count myself lucky for
finding someone.

       I compensate for my shortcomings by retailiating against those who
critize my appearance.  I point out their pot-bellies and point out that I
could eat a horse without gaining a pound.  I try to act like being small has
it's advantages.  If a lot of people only knew how much I wish I looked like
they do.  But they would never know it to talk to me.  I do a pretty good job
of hiding my discontent and insecurities.

       Hope this answers some of your questions.


                                                       Scott D.


#: 136131 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. ::
To: Hari 

Hari,

     I've met very few fat vegetarians, so I have no problem believing that
your paunch is due to something other than fat.  I'm not sure that I buy the
posture argument, however.  Muscle tone (or lack thereof) is the more likely
culprit.

     When you're ready to tackle your paucity of muscles, maybe your abdominal
area would be a great place to start.  You know, sit-ups and those other
painful exercises ... <g>

Kevin C.


#: 136169 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #136131-Do you like your body?
Fm: Hari 
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

Kevin,

       I've met very few fat vegetarians ...

I guess you haven't visited India! Lots of fat vegetarians <g>.

I think by posture, that writer did mean the strengthening of the abdominal
muscles, which he said would automatically 'tighten the gut'.

Actually a lot of our problems here is due to the fact that man evolved a
little too quickly. Our biology hasn't yet got used to the idea that we walk
upright. So all our internal organs were developed to be suspended against the
abdominal wall, except now they press against each other and the whole mass
pushes out - to give the belly. Result is the danger of hernia etc.

<g> When I am ready to tackle my paucity of muscles ... good crack! Actually I
do do abdominal exercises. Because I have an iffy back, and need to keep the
muscles strong to avoid problems.

hari


#: 136419 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. :: 
To: Michael W.

Michael,

You haven't said how old you are.  When I was 21, I was exactly the same
dimensions as you -- almost six feet tall, and (OK, I wasn't quite as skinny)
weighing in at 140 lbs.  I did drop down to 138 every once in a while, though.
And I ate as though food were going out of style!  I don't recall ever feeling
bad about my skinniness, though.

It didn't last.  At 25 I was up to 160, and until I changed my eating patterns
I went up to 194.  Right now I'm down to 164 again (age 62), but it is a
struggle.

I was already married at 21, so I wasn't particularly woman-hunting, but I did
feel that my skinniness was attractive.  Why are you so sure that it's not? 
Even now, I'd rather see a person, male or female, who's 30 pounds underweight
rather than 10 pounds overweight.

George


#: 136634 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #135306-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. ::
To: Scott D. 

Scott,

     It amazes me that people criticize your body (to your face).  Does that
happen often?

Kevin C.


#: 136637 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. ::
To: :: Lana M. :: 

Lana,

     This is somewhat off-topic (what's new?), but which was worse--being
skinny or being overweight?

     Congratulations on reaching a weight that you can be comfortable with!

Kevin C.


#: 137579 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #136647-#Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. :: 
To: Michael W. 

Michael,

I'm going to have to do some plagiarizing again.  The following was posted on
Section 7, Online Relating, a few days ago:

<<<  Today's issue of The Gazette (Montreal) reports the following (original
source is the London Sunday Times):

11 physical attributes women really admire most about men:

1. Buttocks (usually described by women as "small and sexy) 39%
2. Slimness 15%
3. Flat stomach 13%
4. Eyes 11%
5. Long legs 6%
6. Tallness 5%
7. Hair 5%
8. Neck 3%
9. Penis 2%
10. Muscular chest 1%
11. Muscular arms 0% [!]

11 physical attributes men IMAGINE women admire most about them:

1. Muscular chest 21%
2. Muscular arms 18% %
4. Tallness 13%
5. Flat stomach 9%
6. Slimness 7%
7. Hair (texture, not length)
11. Neck 2%                 >>>

I just thought this might interest you and it's sort of appropriate to what
we've been talking about.  Any comments?

George


#: 137618 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #137579-#Do you like your body?
Fm: Bill 
To: :: George V. :: 

In communicating with women via computer or mail the question I have been
asked most often is, "Do you have a hairy chest".  I can only assume that that
is high on some peoples list.  Occasionally, if we have gotten to know each
well enough to be into written or phone sex I will be asked about my penis,
but not often.


#: 137679 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #137618-#Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Linda W. ::
To: Bill 

Bill,

   I personally am apt to ask about body hair in general.  Back, chest, legs,
anywhere is wonderful to me!  It doesn't come up that often, though, because I
tend not to ask for physical descriptions online.

                                                Linda


#: 137682 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #137679-Do you like your body?
Fm: Bill
To: :: Linda W. ::

About male body hair....I have probably been asked more when a relationship
has progressed to tjhe phone stage.  While guys will ask all sorts of nutty
questions right off the bat, females seem to have a lot less interest,
although may be interest in general age and height.  That seems to make sense.


#: 137814 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #137579-Do you like your body?
Fm: Michael W.
To: :: George V. :: 

Hi George,

<"I just thought this might interest you and it's sort of appropriate to what
we've been talking about.  Any comments?">

Hmmmm... Maybe just a little... <grin>

I don't think it's Plagirisim unless you claim that the work was yours... Now
copyright violations, that could be a different matter!

Other Comments... Well, if the women responding to the servey were telling the
truth and, the same attitude prevails in the U.S. I figure that about half of
the women on the planet must secretly be lusting after me.  <sheepish grin> 

Seriously,  the only thing I can say is that this place seems to be causing me
to re-evaluate myself on a daily basis - weather I like it or not.  The
cynical part of me says that those women were not telling the truth.  But,
still it causes me to look in the mirror again and, wonder whats really behind
the image I have, ever so carefully, constructed there. 

As I told someone else, everytime I post a message here or, read one, I end up
asking more questions of myself than I do others.

Mike W.

  
#: 137983 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #137579-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. ::
To: :: George V. ::

George,

     Any comments?  Yes, you just provided more motivation for me to work on
that stomach of mine!  Thanks (I guess).

Kevin C.


#: 138037 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. :: 
To: :: Lana M. :: 

Lana,

     Your message brought back memories of those horrible teenage years. Now I
remember a couple of the reasons why I wouldn't want to do high school again.

     I was short and physically immature, and the other kids teased me
unmercifully.  I can remember having a pubescent, cracking voice well after
most of my friends' voices had deepened.  I hated speaking in front of those
guys, but there was no way to (permanently) get out of doing speeches, oral
reports, etc.  Yet another thing that contributed to my shyness.

Kevin C.


#: 138328 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #138037-#Do you like your body?
Fm: Joe P.
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

I was waht we call a 'late developer' i.e. I was 4 foot 6 with a squeaky voice
until I was about 15, then it all happened overnight (or so it seemed!). 
Suddenly I was hairy, had a croaky voice and was shooting up in height by the
minute!  I had a few problems with that, believe me!

I was reminded of this last year when I had a sudden, stress related skin
problem; I was literally peeling all over the place, and looked and felt
dreadful.  What really caused the problem was the fact that people who'd known
me for years suddenly became wary of me, as if I was contagious or unclean. 
Reasonable enough thought, I suppose, but it sure caused me some short term
problems.


#: 139025 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #138328-#Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. ::
To: Joe P. 

Joe,

     Welcome to section 8.

     When your development caught up with the other kids', were your problems
over?  Or were you so attuned to your (perceived) shortcomings that you
couldn't break the habit of being overly self-critical?

Kevin C.


#: 139058 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139025-Do you like your body?
Fm: Joe P. 
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

It took a couple of years; I really changed when I left home and went to
University; moving from home to a place where no-one knew me allowed me
tostart afresh with new people.  I then found that when I went home again,
after my first year, I was better able to deal with 'old' friends due to the
confidence I'd gained. 

I now find that I get self-critical when I get under a lot of emotional
stress, but those three years away from home at college were great; I dealt
with people who weren't aware of my own perceived shortcomings and I learnt to
have a more healthy opinion of myself from them.

Joe


#: 139059 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139025-Do you like your body?
Fm: Joe P. 
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

I sent a reply, but it seems to have gone on mail.
Sorry about  that!

The essence was that when I went to University, I gained a much higher
self-esteem because people I was dealing with hadn't known me 'before' and
took me as they saw me at college.  This helped me deal better with people
that I had known as an adolescent, and I was lucky enough to retain a healthy
self-esteem when I left college and went into adult life.  My University
carrer started when I was 18, so I had the problem for no more than a couple
of years.


#: 139242 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. ::
To: Bill 

Bill,

<<<In communicating with women via computer or mail the question I have been
asked most often is, "Do you have a hairy chest".>>>

That surprises me, too.  I was not aware that chest hair was important to any
woman! 

George


#: 139243 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. ::
To: Michael W. 

Michael,

<<<The cynical part of me says that those women were not telling the truth.>>>

I can understand how you feel, and to some extent I feel the same
way...except:

What possible reason would they have for NOT telling the truth?  It's just a
survey, and they obviously had no reason to spare anyone's feelings.

I don't recall whether I mentioned this before, but the survey was apparently
done in England, even though it was reported in a Canadian newspaper. 

I'm glad it made you stop and think!

<<<As I told someone else, everytime I post a message here or, read one, I end
up asking more questions of myself than I do others.>>>

Sounds to me as though you have the makings of a real HSX addict!  That's what
got me hooked.

George


#: 139304 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139242-Do you like your body?
Fm: Bill 
To: :: George V. :: 

Well, I wouldn't have thought too much about a hairy body, but it seems to be
a big turn on to many women.  Like most things it probably turns on some, but
may turn off others.


#: 139473 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139058-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. :: 
To: Joe P. 

Joe,

     What kinds of successes at college bolstered your self-esteem?

Kevin C.


#: 139535 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139243-Do you like your body?
Fm: Michael W. 
To: :: George V. :: 

Hi George,

I think I was hooked about the 2nd day I was here.  I've already started
"lurking" expiditions into other parts of the forum - I may have a stroke when
I get the bill, it's here already but, I'm afraid to look!  :)

Your fellow addict.
Mike W. 


#: 139597 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139243-Do you like your body?
Fm: Hari 
To: :: George V. :: 

George,

About surveys <on sex esp.>

       "What possible reason would they have for NOT telling the truth? It's
       just a survey, and ..."

No matter how anonymous a survey, there is always one person who will know
what you said - yourself. And especially in matters involving sex, we are
great at lying to ourselves.

For eg, ten years ago, if you asked me about women, I would have filled out a
survey de-emphasizing physical beauty, because _I_ felt ashamed at the thought
I would value it so highly. I could not admit to MYSELF that a woman's
appearance was more important <in some ways> than if she could discuss Brecht.

Even last year. I bought a shyness book ["If I am so wonderful then how come
I'm still single?"]. And part of it involved <as I recall> writing down
exactly what I wanted in a woman. I started writing, finished, and then
realised:

       All the while I was writing stuff like 'intelligent, sympathetic,
       curious ...' I was thinking 'lovely black hair, sweet slender body,
       huge solemn eyes' etc <g>.

I couldn't WRITE it down! I couldn't face up to the fact that all said and
done, a woman's appearance was so important to me. And this was just for
myself. Not to show anyone else. It wasn't that what I wrote down was wrong.
Rather that it wasn't 'all the truth' <g>

Even NOW, I can't tell how important the physical appearance of a woman is to
me. Because I am lying to myself all the time ...

hari


#: 139728 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #139473-Do you like your body?
Fm: Joe P. 
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

Academically I did a lot better than I thought I would; I also found that I
was quite popular with both sexes as someone who was reasonably good fun to be
with.  In addition, I was living independantly for the first time in my life,
which I found quite amazing.


#: 140738 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. :: 
To: Michael W. 

Michael,

May I suggest that you get started on HSX 100 Section 3, immediately.  When
you open your CI$ bill and have that stroke, you might need Dr. Nancy's
immediate attention!

George


#: 140739 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. ::
To: Hari 

Hari,

There's a man at work who is always telling lies.  Not vicious lies, but
mostly joking lies.  ("Have you looked outside?  Boy, that snow is really
coming down").  I've asked people, Do you know how you can tell when Bill is
lying?  The answer:  When his mouth moves.

Gosh, you're even worse!  You're lying to yourself even when your mouth isn't
moving.

But seriously, although you might lie on a survey, because you're lying to
yourself, do you think this is a problem for most people?  I sort of doubt it.
When I do participate in a survey, I'm usually pretty conscientious about
having my answers really scrupulously honest and accurate.

George


#: 140754 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #140739-Do you like your body?
Fm: Hari 
To: :: George V. :: 

George,

On the survey itself, I believe it! Women [personal, anecdotal survey of two
women] go for gorgeous buns in a big way <g>.

So they said.

Somehow I would have expected them to rate hair much more highly. And eyes.
But that is my prejudice re how I would rate women <g>

I totally disbelieve the rating of the penis. I am virtually certain that they
are suffering from exactly my 'lying to myself' problem in that case.

hari 


#: 141809 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #140754-#Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. ::
To: Hari 

Hari,

What makes you so sure women are lying when they express  relatively little
interest in the size of a man's penis?

If the size of a penis is important to a woman, then the size of a vagina
should be equally important to a man.  Is it?  Do you, or do you know of any
men, who undress a woman with their eyes and speculate on the size of her
vagina?  I think if a poll were taken of men about what they look for in a
woman, that would be near the bottom of the list.  Why should women feel
differently about male sex organs?

George


#: 141943 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #141809-Do you like your body?
Fm: Hari
To: :: George V. ::

George,

I am saying they are lying to themselves, not that they are pretending it
isn't important.

ie., in the case of taboo subjects, we ourselves don't know the proper value
we place on them.

It could well be that the penis is LESS important than even they say it is
<g>.

I have mentioned this before, but anyway. I was in a course on human
sexuality, and the class was treated to a video about the genitals. First the
vagina & its parts were shown. Everyone <men and women both> was rapt, and
asked questions etc. Then the penis was shown, erect and otherwise. EVERYONE
was embarrassed, men and women both. And the lecturer <a woman>. Quite a few
of the women went 'ick!'. For my part, I had expected the women to be
embarrassed about the photographs of vulva and men to be embarrassed about the
penis.

I queried at that point, why when men in the class found photographs of the
vagina interesting and even beautiful ... the women found the penis ugly? The
<embarrassed> answer was that they were not used to thinking/seeing the penis.

That is why I have no belief on any survey about the importance of the penis.
When people are so profoundly affected by a topic, you can't ask them to be
objective about it.

hari


#: 142397 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #141943-Do you like your body?
Fm: Todd B. 
To: Hari 

I don't differentiate.  I think ALL genitalia are ugly.  Period.


#: 143270 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. :: 
To: Hari 

Hari,

What did the people who signed up for the human sexuality class expect, if
they were embarrassed by a discussion and photos of sexual organs?  Your
description seems very surprising to me.  I'm not doubting you but I'm amazed.

I do have to doubt you about people lying in an impersonal survey.  Well, I
suppose that if the question were posed and answered in person, there could be
a tendency to lie, but if it was conducted in writing, perhaps even by mail, I
would have more faith in the answers than you would.  Yes, I realize you're
talking about lying *to one's self* but I think if someone were pondering the
answers in the privacy of her home (we're talking about females) she would
take the time to examine her own answers for honesty.

I know you've said that you have no qualms about asking a college professor
questions in class-- even argumentative questions-- but I wonder whether it
took great courage on your part to ask those questions in the HSX class...
about why the pictures of male genitals were embarrassing.  Even after all of
my experience here, I think I would still find it difficult to ask.

George


#: 143274 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #142031-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: George V. :: 
To: :: Kevin C. :: 

Kevin,

What I was trying to say was that speculation on the size of a woman's vagina
is really way down on the list of things most men speculate about when they
see an attractive woman walking down the street.  Sure, I've heard men
speculate about it, but not nearly as much as about the size, bounciness, feel
and genuineness of her breasts.  Supposedly, though, when women see a sexy man
walking down the street they will speculate on the size of his penis (after,
of course, speculating on the shape of his buns <g>).  They might speculate on
it as a symbol, but that doesn't mean it's that important to them in bed.

George


#: 144100 S8/Shyness Workshop
Sb: #143274-Do you like your body?
Fm: :: Kevin C. :: 
To: :: George V. ::

George,

     Perhaps these questions are better answered by a woman, but you're handy
<g> ...

     Why would women speculate on the size of a man's penis if it is not
important to them in bed?  I can't imagine a place other than bed where the
size of a man's penis would affect them at all!  Is this some sort of game,
like trying to guess how many jelly beans there are in a big glass jar?

Kevin C.